DANCE REFLECTIONS 013 with Peter and Yari

Dance Reflections is a weekly Friday podcast with Peter Mills and Yari Stilo, centred on conversation, shared practice, and taking time to look back in order to think forward. The series reflects on recent episodes, past experiences, and ongoing questions around dance, life, and practice. Through talking, occasionally dancing, and revisiting shared histories, Dance Reflections creates a regular space for continuity, response, and staying in contact across distance.

Dance Reflections sits alongside two other podcast series:
PETER, dance with…, released every third Monday, where Peter invites a guest to dance one of their practices and reflect on it together; and DANCE WORKSHOP, released on the Mondays in between, a series of short audio workshops exploring dance through imagination, movement, and curiosity.

Watch videos of all Dance Reflections Episodes here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5iebzO4vouz_45v7u7SeYn6fpgp7uN2m

You can find more about all of Peter’s work at:
https://stillpeter.com/

Listen to the other podcast series here:
PETER, dance with…
https://stillpeter.com/peter-dance-with-podcast/

DANCE WORKSHOP
https://stillpeter.com/peter-audio-dance-workshop/

Music empty five by mobygratis

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:25

So, Peter, what are you dancing today?

SPEAKER_00 0:33

What are you dancing today, I um uh I don't know, maybe I'm and then Yeah, I don't know, that's why I asked the question back to you.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

I think I'm densely waking up, but maybe in you know, not only waking up uh in like in the morning, but waking up as a waking up a certain corner of the body. Yeah something like that. That's like sometimes they they stay for very long uh asleep in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

I think I found some rhythms in the air today, which is nice. It's not not for granted that there's a rhythm.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

No, uh some some people work a lot with the rhythms, I feel like uh they start from that, but uh s some other more with patterns, like visual patterns or I don't know sort of a a compositional thing, you mean? Yeah. I feel like I'm much more busy all the time about you know visual What did you think of this week's skin? It was uh I it was uh I I I listened that uh while biking. Yeah, yeah, I don't it was interesting because I really listened to that even like a couple of times to to make sure to to be with that um and it was um there was something that uh strikes me and it was about uh the question of uh if risk uh no sincerely I'm not there now, I'm so sorry. I must admit my ignorance.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

I mean it it it it did ask uh I sort of was wondering because I d I didn't warm up or I don't warm up for this um this dance we're doing now. Uh so I had I did have to think is that is that a safe practice or what would be a safe a safe way to sort of prepare for this dance? What am I risking when when dancing? I think something that didn't come up is like the adrenaline often um of dancing, the sort of uh that I'm listening to the performance of it all rather than maybe what my body needs. And and I I I know that's where I get injured, or I can have like I find myself doing things that maybe I shouldn't be doing, I'm not ready for, uh I haven't prepared myself for.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Yeah, I mean it's it's nice because you you make very clear that as a dancer we like risk, and as an audience we like risk. Everyone kind of likes a dance that is uh in risk or that looks like risk risky. Yes, uh it's it's a bit like a sport sport relation, no? Uh in that sense, I was really thinking that virtuosity is really connected to risk in the end, you know. Uh uh. Or it looks that it's risky, so the audience cannot do something. Uh uh and it's so risky, I don't know. And but also as a performer, we're always uh very drawn to this uh pushing the limits or something. Uh yeah, but also then not, then there is also refusal of that risky side, yeah. Because risky is really a lot of engagement. I mean in a state where I am now, in a sort of like you know, uh I woke up uh risky can be very little in itself, yeah. And uh it's just by doing a couple of uh little fast things, I feel like I'm really at risk. But I don't know if I'm really at risk, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yeah, but because there's also I think you say it really nicely in a way like um with sport, there's there's a direction you're always trying to improve your jump or your speed, or um and and also obviously do it what um uh do it safely, but um ultimately if you're not competing with the sort of the standard of the game, then then there's um you're not you're not uh you're not able to sort of compete, I guess. That's what I'm trying to say. Whereas in dance, we are able to push those virtuosic virtuosic spaces and then also uh come back away from them as well and challenge the uh the the sort of beauty of risk or the that desire for risk and find other types of risk as well. And I think what I think what I don't think about too often is the sort of the the mental risk of some of the things we set up for ourselves in dance. And how we prove um prevent or protect ourselves or prepare um for these like here, for example, our script is really small, right? Like we have um one question and then we just sort of open form talking. Um and so we put ourselves in quite a risky situation trying to find things to say, trying to uh speak off the spur at the spur of the moment. There's because of the because it's a recording, there's um uh we feel pressured to like not to pause too long, like to actually think about what we're saying. I'm thinking about earlier here where you said uh you were you were starting to say something and then you you said, oh no, uh my thoughts are not in in order. And there there's a sort of protection, right? Of like I don't want to say something that I I don't know what I say, or that um is unformulated somehow.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Yeah, uh stay stay at risk. Yeah Oh, I have so many thoughts that I can't make it uh in in one.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

But what how did you find this last prompt of like to do a dance that has no risk, you know, that takes no risk? I mean what is does is there a sensation of that? Like is there a a a space for that?

SPEAKER_02 9:53

And also this idea of end as well, you know, we're there's a when it's enough, when it's like no, that's I need to stop here. Um I thought maybe that uh uh having a dance that there is no risk, it's also like g finally take out some social pressure uh of um showing because also I mean very often or in some part sometimes a tech like when you see a dancer dancing, it you know, it might look it's at risk, but it's not at all. That's the point, no? It's also what one of your exercises, like maybe it's not exactly this, but it is like find non non-risk in risk, or yeah, find uh risk and non-risk. Yeah, or uh so I think that there that is pressure that also could really be in the real so very present, yeah, ethically. I mean, there is a few stuff in real also, like where the context of dancing, not real so, like about dancing and finding together research, or like that's uh that are very contextual in dance, in the sense that like touch, for example, that is very like the relation between consent, the relation between risk, it's different. We we we like we take for granted certain base of dance that cannot be super rediscussed, can be discussed, but like this is like entering the context, it's is kind of signing a base of some of risk, a base of touch, a base of moving your body, for example, like or I don't know, certain kind of minimum, I would say. I don't know if uh that it's higher than usual life. That's everyday maybe context in relation to that. And so I'm thinking that maybe how that stay in the room and how we we can together as a group be within it's very hard because you you uh the your question, what would uh a dance of care be? I I thought an answer would have been it's the dance that care for uh the person that is in more in need in the room or something like that, you know what I mean? That that's the take the speed, that's the rate, that's the re the read on it's given by that person. Yeah, not the opposite, because in the studio it's more uh very often is it's the opposite. Yeah, it's it's like okay, this person can get there, this person has to get there, but maybe also it's true, it's also this is uh an act of care. It's like oh, if this person can't, we should help this person to get there, yeah. So it's more like the way we engage with this person, you know, how the support is established, then maybe how much you risk or not, or you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Yes, yeah. I don't know. It's really beautifully said, like in the baby performance, um, something that I found which I was quite surprised by was that we made a rule that you you dance for the person who has the least ability, the sort of the youngest in the room is often the measure, the person who you set the time for everyone there. And the then what I was sort of noticing is that I'm trying to articulate not not um not like uh a specific virtuosity, but I'm trying to provide uh adults that come with the children and also children that are more developed to appreciate things which the youngest in the room or the the least developed uh in the room can appreciate. I'm noticing like the word developed sort of is problematic in the relationship to what I'm trying to describe, but I think you understand what I mean. Like it it yeah, it it situates itself to the to that person or those uh those attributes. And then but I find this really curious uh curious of the practice of appreciation, and I feel like the more I dance, that that's perhaps the thing that I'm studying more is how to appreciate certain qualities, certain bodily um knowledges and practices and activities, how to appreciate them and how to spend time with them, finding ways in. And with the babies, actually, quite specifically, uh, and this actually does challenge this idea of development. Each child has such a unique and specific way of being and being attentive to things, to their sensorial system, to their perception, that you're sort of always surprised and always sort of taken to a place which is sort of undefinable almost. Like I find myself with like lack of words and lack of a knowledge of how to fully attend, because I'm I'm trying to attend something that is uh is beyond my ability to to speak about and to categorize quite clearly. Like, for example, like if the child is playing with the the shadow and the light, is it just is it simply just visual or is it something more complex which involves other senses or other interests than just movement per se? The categorization at that age is so undefined that they have like the ability to find interests and particularities which we haven't sort of limited through the categorization of okay, they're dealing with light movement and such and such. It there's a sort of blurriness and um openness to it. And I'd imagine that's the same for everyone, even though we say uh now I'm dealing with the movement of my hands. Uh, what that means for me and how you understand that are perhaps quite different, even if we can sort of agree that we're within the same contractual space or conceptual space of moving hands, like how I move my hands and what I'm relating to when I move my hands is perhaps very specific to my physiology, my social, uh, economic, personal, um, history and context with the with that movement, with that, with that nose, with the with that, yeah, with that moment. And so then so dancing, then it was really sort of like, oh wow, then dancing can be really about how do we spend more time and be more appreciative of um yeah, uh experience and being with each other or with a context with with a sensation. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Yeah, I mean, that's also something in uh in a big picture, it's all your workshop are very busy mostly with experience. Yes. That's true, yeah. Uh there was something which was you're speaking about a dance that you really even don't know where it is when you spoke about you know the experience of the of the baby. You're like, there is a dance, but I'm not sure where this dance is situated. And that you have this question about the dance, uh, caring for the dancer or the dance, right? No, yeah, something like that, yeah. Exactly. And uh and uh and it's so interesting because, like, this uh from a point of view of a uh of a choreographer, I suppose there is a dancer, there is a dance, then there is the dancers, and there or you are sort of controlling, or I am controlling the dance, or trying to figure out what the dance needs, but it's still the dance is coming a lot from it, depends, but very often can come a lot from me. So also my needs and the needs of the dance as a choreographer sometimes are very similar.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah. I'm thinking also that when when you say me, are you referring to yourself in the role of the dancer? Just uh now as a choreographer, sorry. As a choreographer, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

I'm just saying, I'm just saying basically that the division between the dancer and the dance is something that we are kind of exploring quite a lot or that's been explored, yeah. Uh, but then the division between the choreographer and the dance, it's uh it's also an interesting subject. Yeah, true. Uh in uh because uh such a question can work caring for the dancer or the dancer only if there is also a clear division between the dance and the choreographer.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

You know, if if also the choreographer is subjected to the dance, yeah, yeah. To the subjectivity of the dance, you know, also if if the choreographer is listening to that, is uh and the choreographer is, you know, in that sense, uh and and this happened because when I was, I think I was working with Samuel Feldhandler, and it's it's so interesting because you would think is the opposite. He writes choreography directly, he writes scores before doing a dance. So he first writes scores, and they're very movement-based scores and very rhythmical. So it's it's a very it's uh it's not uh a task, it's not a prompt or a task, it's a real, almost a notation. It's a notation, and yet I think this gave him really strong uh uh agency to be a dancer, to be a choreographer subjected, you know. To a score, to a dance. Because once the score was written, it was very clear what the score says. So what the dance somehow wants. And what he as a choreographer wants. That's there were two different things. Or can do, and so on, you know, like and the same than what the dancer can do in relation to these two things. So also the making a power that is is shared, the responsibility is shared by three and not by two. I think in that sense was also quite powerful.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

No, this is really interesting. And I kind of want to sit with it for a little bit because it's so uh playful as a yeah, as a as a way into thinking around these things. I had to think of Lee Anderson as well. She was speaking a lot about um creating a problem with which to solve together with the dancer. So it becomes like a third thing. So they had the video of Laurel and Hardy, and that acts as like a script or a score, which then they can talk about sort of and discuss free of sort of speaking to the choreographer who is the the only voice of the score or the the the script, so to say, the choreography, that that it's sort of externalized from the from the choreographer's personhood a little bit, a little bit more. I mean, obviously, still Lee, I think, has a lot of decisions that she'll make after and before the choosing or sharing the video to work on. However, the it sort of alleviates that or puts a pause on that for a bit so that some material can be produced between the people. I think it's really important or it's really interesting to acknowledge. And and what Sam's doing is so um it's um like there's this it's a sort of historic way actually of choreographing, and and obviously useful has been very useful and continues to be very useful way to sort of provide a yeah, that division. Well, one thing that came up to for me was when we're talking about uh and thinking about like the role of the choreographer and the dancer and the dance, there's like there's a question of control at play. Like can can the uh can the choreographer control the dance? And I feel we have a sort of it's it there's a there's no absolute there. Like, and sometimes at least I find myself thinking through these absolute, like the choreographer choreographs the dance, therefore they control the dance. However, the the reality is a lot more complex than that. The choreographer is an actor within the emergence of this thing we call dance, and they hold a specific role, and maybe one of their roles is to try to control, try to manipulate, and the same with the dancer, even the dancer is trying to control or uh or can can be seen as trying to control or um coerce or gain gain control over the dance in order to execute it in a way they wish or the way they think the choreographer wishes, or so but I almost feel like you can never have full control of the dance. The dance is always constitutive of so many other actors and players uh that yeah, um yeah, there's a there's a sh sort of distribution or uh yeah, the the idea of full control, I think this is what I'm questioning.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

I understand it's a shared uh agency. Yeah, or it's uh it's uh yeah. I mean definitely what it looks to me the choreography is the one can that can affect more the the the the dance in a big picture, like like make space for the dance to happen in in the in the big context. So maybe this uh zoom out role. I don't know if it's an outside eye, but like this push up the perimeters, this is what I mean. Or make sure push or like make space for the center to appear, make space for the periphery to appear to the you know, that that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

I feel like they have a lot more like sort of legislative type um control, right? That they're usually closer to the uh where and how the dance is shown and made and being able to make decisions around the conditions in which the dance is is danced. And I think that uh sort of contributes to them have seeming to have more control than other actors, right? Like they're the ones often that get to choose the name of the piece because they're the ones in dialogue with the people promoting the piece. It's very rare that the the dancer would be in such close proximity to uh the sort of yeah, the contextualization or um apparatuses of forming the dance and the naming, the promoting, the staging, the um situating um within a community or within a certain uh festival or program.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

And and the choreographer is the one that that sits the most with with the dance, also with the piece that he's doing or they are doing or she's doing in that sense. Yeah. So also this is also a lot. I mean, more you spend time with and more somehow you gain knowledge, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yeah. And you gain the more knowledge you have, the greater control you have.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Yeah. But uh when when the audience is there, also this is where the choreographer can't do much, or when the performance is happening. I saw so many choreographers like going crazy during a performance because they couldn't do anything, there they couldn't stop, they couldn't just scream something like to dance, they couldn't or how going crazy because the audience have an interpretation of the of the piece, and and yeah, and it's totally far from what I what they thought.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

No, exactly. I've heard also stories where choreographers have stopped performances midway because it's not doing what they wish it to do. And it's interesting, isn't it? So what you're talking about with Sam is like he's taking care of the together with the dancers, they're able to take care of the score. Uh, in this example of someone stopping a performance, the choreographer is trying to take care of this image or vision that they have for the for the dance. They don't wish it to be the dancers, they are often trying to take care of the and take responsibility for what they've been given whilst in the performance. Uh so care actually has a lot, a lot of like um uh seems to have a lot of like um what do you call it, uh relationship to the to how and who and what is controlling the dance and where the agency is within a dance. Um yeah. I mean, I had to think of when you were discuss just talking now of the yeah, the dancer maybe f has definitely has more control during the performance. They can do what they like, but they perhaps have the burden or the are a little bit controlled by will I continue working if I if I don't do as I was told, will I get another job? Um which is such a yeah, it would be interesting. It would be interesting if we lived in a world where we weren't so dominated by that economic economic necessity to to have a job and to to maintain an employment with someone or with a company or with within a field even, um that we would be able to dance uh out or what kind of structures maybe, I'm sort of curious, what kind of structures would m emerge around care and risk and security if we didn't have those dynamics where you're yeah, you're um submitting a little bit your agency to the economic necessity of maintaining a job and so on. Because in those relations, the choreographer often has greater power and greater freedom, and then people above the choreographer have even more freedom and uh control and power.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when abuse maybe or limits are crossed, it's mostly in those relationships where they can't really be changed. And yeah, you're kind of yeah. Yeah, it's uh in the day in the I think some the the rehearsals sometimes are too fast for that things like what would be like I never stop a rehearsal and say, Oh, maybe we should speak about this all together. Like, oh that's specific that is happening now, oh this power things, or just like yeah, it's uh it's such a pity that I'm I'm not really able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Yeah. Which is, I mean, which is why I find study or this kind of context kind of interesting because we we find ourselves a little bit freer from um some of those necessities, those drives. And and I think we often talk about it as production, right? We need to produce, but I think maybe we could think a little bit even broader than that. Like it's this these power dynamics and the the control they pr produce upon the dance and what the dance can be and is needed to be. Well, we covered a lot today, from attention to appreciation, sorry, to um power dynamics, the choreographer-dancer relationship. And there is still so much.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Well, with the next week. Thank you for these uh beautiful uh episodes, uh short but so dense of uh very inspiring things.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Well, thank you, yeah. It it uh I I'm infinitely surprised what comes out. Uh but it's just by getting to spend time with people like yourself and to be allowed to be in this community and with dance that allows me to sort of keep asking these questions. Um and I'm glad you're supporting me at least in asking these questions. So it means a lot. So it's so rewarding to me. I find it's infinitely fascinating. But hey, we we're gonna try something different maybe uh in a couple of weeks or a week or something, but let's see, let's keep it a secret. But we have some ideas coming up.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Yeah, I'm excited. And what's about um what's about the study circle?

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yeah, it's it's it's gonna happen. Um, I'm going to um set a date, and we have quite a few people interested. So um, but if people are still interested, of course, please let me know. Um there's always gonna be uh timing conflicts and stuff where people can't attend and do. And uh but yeah, soon we will start that. Yeah, I'm excited.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Wow, so many new things.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

I know too many new things. It gives me heart palpitations. All right, ciao, see you, Yaddy.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

See you, bye.