DANCE REFLECTION 012 with Peter and Yari

Dance Reflections is a weekly Friday podcast with Peter Mills and Yari Stilo, centred on conversation, shared practice, and taking time to look back in order to think forward. The series reflects on recent episodes, past experiences, and ongoing questions around dance, life, and practice. Through talking, occasionally dancing, and revisiting shared histories, Dance Reflections creates a regular space for continuity, response, and staying in contact across distance.

Dance Reflections sits alongside two other podcast series:
PETER, dance with…, released every third Monday, where Peter invites a guest to dance one of their practices and reflect on it together; and DANCE WORKSHOP, released on the Mondays in between, a series of short audio workshops exploring dance through imagination, movement, and curiosity.

Watch videos of all Dance Reflections Episodes here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5iebzO4vouz_45v7u7SeYn6fpgp7uN2m

You can find more about all of Peter’s work at:
https://stillpeter.com/

Listen to the other podcast series here:
PETER, dance with…
https://stillpeter.com/peter-dance-with-podcast/

DANCE WORKSHOP
https://stillpeter.com/peter-audio-dance-workshop/

Music empty five by mobygratis

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:35

I was actually thinking about the authentic movement practice. We haven't really spoken about that. Me and Yari, we attend this and and you organize as well with Celioina. This authentic movement practice group.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

And with Alice Adique also.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Yes, sorry. Sorry. And it's a nice group, and there's some regulars as well, like Alice Mackenzie. And myself, like at the beginning, at least when I was in Sweden in Stockholm. But I had to think like because in there you're you're moving because of what feels authentic, what what what comes up. And also not moving, right? Like there's an invitation to to not move at all and just wait. And if if something comes, it comes. But I was thinking now because of uh this week's episode on consent and invitation. What kind of what would it be to do a similar practice but to dance what you're invited to dance? And I was doing that at the moment. I was sort of looking for what's what is what do I feel invited to do rather than doing what feels or like comes but to do um what I'm being called or asked or permitted or allowed or feel comfortable with, I'm consenting to what kind of movement, what kind of qualities and bodies. And it was interesting because at the beginning I was just in my room alone and I was finding little dances, and then I looked over to you at the screen, and I found this dance with the hands, which I don't feel like I invited into the room. I feel like it came from you. It came from an invitation that was sort of yeah. How about you, Yaddy? What are you dancing today?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

I think I am dancing. I'm dancing the new space a bit where I am but also the potentiality of the new space. What it could be, it could become. And I strange I had the same thought as you about this in inviting, like what where uh what I am invited to do and I it's so interesting because I so uh you also speak about that I think in the podcast. You you you do so much in the public space where definitely there is no invitation to to dance. Uh it's uh it's an effort to dance in public space. Because uh because like this uh the yeah, there there is an against the consent. Actually, people are even uncomfortable in seeing people dancing in in the public space. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

And yet the public space is public, so but almost I think that public is made up of those consensual relations. I think what you're maybe more speaking to is a sense that the public space has become stuck. Um it's just one type of consent that is permitted and it feels highly governed through police, through codes, through norms. It's the the public space doesn't feel very malleable. It's not renegotiated, which is something I think in relation to consent, it's something we're doing all the time. We're constantly negotiating and renegotiating those yeses that we uh find within a dance context and trying to yeah, always listen. So it's a dialogue rather than a monologue type thing. I mean, you must experience this when you're uh following within Tango. Like it's a it is it's not it's never a uh it's never a static sort of consensual relationship. It's constantly in motion, bravely. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's never uh I'm following it. Well, it's also like the leader following me somehow. And and and and that's uh uh uh it's also a relation to abilities, uh I would say. Yes, yes, yeah. What I can do is yes, I what you can do the permission goes to what I think I can do or or what I do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Which actually, when I was rereading sort of the notes on on this, um, and it had this sort of what kinds of inside and outsides do different invitations produce, and are they important? Is it important that some people feel outside of a dance? I think it's obviously in the in the context of consent, uh there's a like a there's like um there's a worry, right? Like uh people shouldn't feel excluded or um yeah that uh that they can't participate in some way. However, I think a lot of dancing has to do with finding unique um unique skills or knowledges that allow for a certain dance. That doesn't mean that people can't dance in general, right? It's not exclusive to dance as a whole, but it is finding exclusive pockets within dance that um provide like a very nuanced language. It just occurred to me when you were saying, like, what is the skill, like what's possible? Um can I do this step? Uh, and the person will uh feel included in being able to do it because they feel comfortable doing it, type thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:11

I think also in this, there is a lot of like challenged challenges are also very welcome generally. Like, we like to be challenged now, absolutely true to learn that's why consent sometimes is a bit tricky because there's a risk to maybe uh uh I'm thinking about how touch and in dance and consent work. Uh that is the most maybe stereotype way of thinking about consent, but like it's it touch is part of the dance, yes, and of course, uh has to be a consensual, but uh it's another kind of consent in dance, yeah. Or it's another based, or it's another like uh I'm thinking also about the contract, and and I'm thinking also about contract of uh of the audience and maybe the the performer, like also, because very often the consent also comes from there, no? If uh you are not aware you are in a participatory performances, it's the base is participatory or the base is like oh the contract they think they signed before coming, yeah, you know, and then how do you renegotiate a contract while they're there? Yes in that sense, and uh it's a beautiful uh making space for the for the audience to to speak. I don't know what that means really, but you know, to to to look and react in relation to that.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Because it's also it's not about like it's in in it's an interesting place of participation, right? Like it's not uh it's not full agency, and it's not or maybe it is full agency, maybe agency isn't really the condition by which it's measured, but the exactly like we we want to um to be included somehow, we want to like feel some familiarity, like the contract should sort of provide a safe space in which to engage, but at the same time we are draw, we were desiring some kind of friction, some kind of like um uh challenge, as you say, like to like, oh okay, this can do this now, this can go there. We were talking about this, like the idea maybe that's the job of art. So then when you when you start um thinking through the lens of consent, there's uh there's a huge emphasis then on how do we make that challenge to what is understood as the what I'm opting into be ethical in a way. How do we make it um somehow possible to to shift? I think it's very obvious for me with the babies, like I would say this like when performing for the babies, we always put the conditions of safety and consent and uh any any sort of like yeah uh element of discomfort, we put that like before the choreography. So we never continue dancing if someone starts screaming or if something becomes uh clearly discomfortable, uncomfortable. We always drop the choreography and try to listen into the situation, um, and yet all the time we're pushing the boundaries. Like for a person that age, everything is new, and in fact, everything that is interesting tends to be things that they don't quite understand yet, so they'll be more attentive towards it. So it's the it's really the space you're wanting to challenge them to provide them new experiences or different experiences, contrasting experiences, and yet at the same time, you don't want to push too far too quickly. Um you want to ensure that they are comfortable. And so when when a new audience member comes in to the space, we spend a lot of time just firstly negotiating how close, what what type of proximity we can work with them, because they're free to go wherever they want, you know. Uh, and then once we gain a comfortable proximity, and then we start to introduce um less normative bodies, maybe um, bodies that make sounds that are peculiar or shapes and dynamics or textures or qualities that are are sort of unfamiliar, and we see how far we can go. And even even the proximity is right up to touch, you know. Like some children are ready to be in contact with us as dancers, um, but there's no ideal, right? Like in that situation, the choreography can't have like a we have to get here, it's always negotiating those spaces. Maybe there's an argument of like then what is the what is the center, what is the part? Um and I I fall back on like oh I just want to dance, uh, spend time, spend time bodily, physically, uh in this place, in the space together, um, and allow for that, who gives three hours for it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Yeah, I mean, baby's uh physicality is also so specific that then somehow the heart has to be in relation to that, uh, or in the listen to that. Choreography then become maybe a concept also too outside, too much like someone else in that sense. Yeah, uh, to construct or to I don't know to be access accessed or to be maybe recalled. I don't know, I'm just I'm just and I'm thinking also what you wrote uh Sim, the uh the episode uh also somehow speaks a lot about accessibility, yeah. Although you don't mention really, but yeah when uh outside or in like who understand the the uh who feel is understanding what they are saying. I mean this is one of the inviting the audience to be part of the performance, even just in watching, to feel like they are somewhere in an experience that they can understand themselves. It's one of the most difficult parts of any kind of performance. If it's a more experimental, let's say. Yeah, if it's something what I mean experimental, I mean like that people are not used to see. Yeah, that they are not used, so they can't what what do we do when the audience really can't grasp all the maybe quote reference, and I'm speaking of quote reference, but also aesthetically, like yeah, what we are so used and we are busy with. Uh, and sometimes it's also all their colleagues they can't. Uh sometimes even the dancer in relation to the choreographer, they can't. Yeah, like it's also possible all that, but but the audience is just feel to me like this the audience can't feel stupid, you know what I mean? That's uh but this happens very often, and it's also a question of judgment. I do feel like maybe when the audience is about to judge, then or they judge very badly the performance, or they feel stupid, or it's the same, but you know, in different timing. So, how can we avoid this? Somehow, I mean, that's my question, of course. I'm I'm not saying that this has to be avoided, but from my side, I'm thinking like, no, but I really don't want an audience that feels stupid sincerely.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

No. I so I have two things. I was thinking, you know, how I was saying, like, put the choreography second, and of course, that having the ethics at the top, that's a choreography, right? Maybe it's an ethical uh aesthetics. Um, I thought that was interesting. Like, I'm saying that the choreography is second, but we know what that means, right? We mean like have the choreography be first and foremost listening and attentive and open to adjusting and um uh removing backing off if something feels uncomfortable. And yeah, this in uh feeling invited to watch, um like an audience feeling invited to watch, it reminded me of like how a little bit what our job is is to do things that feel embarrassing, but to do them anyway. Like now Yadi has their foot uh right up in front of the camera. Like in an in a non-dance context, this could be considered as quite embarrassing, as something sort of um it's crossing a consensual barrier of like the what we do with our body and what parts of our body do I we show and present. And the job, I think, of us as performers, as dancers is a little bit like to do those things, but to make them feel inviting. Like I am gonna let you look at my body. I'm gonna let you look at it. Just that in itself is already quite the quite the strange contract that we are like permitting um for people to take to make focus on movement, on moving in a specific way, on um a body being in a specific uh way. Um and it was Jonathan Boris who said said this, like, oh, dance is uh it's quite embarrassing what we do. I think he said this. Maybe this is how I interpreted it, but um it sort of resonated with me, like it it became a hook. And I I think I'm using embarrassment not as a way to sort of like demonize dance and make out that we do only disgusting, ugly, horrible things, but to perhaps speak about the consensual um landscape that we are like participating in, one where we are doing things which are often a little bit abnormal, but we do them anyway, and we try to make them inviting somehow and inclusive. And and you're absolutely right, like um there's plenty of occasions where it doesn't work, and the audience feels stupid that they don't understand why we would work, move, perform in a certain way. Um I I I kind of believe that that's the fault of uh believing that dance is just movement, that the the art form of dance is movement, and that's it's only material. I believe that dance is more relational than that, it is it includes touch actually in a way, you know, in the sense of um encounter is so much part of dance, and by focusing solely on movement, uh which we've done for such a long time, I believe we started to create um abstractions which aren't very helpful for what dance can do and and how it can make a person feel um well not feel silly, not feel stupid. Um even if you think of like partner dancing, right? Like I grab you and do this strange thing, but there's something in the grabbing, the holding of the partner, the that the invitation of that of don't worry, I'm here with you. I'm going to show you this thing which we wouldn't normally do, which we wouldn't normally pay attention to, to our body, to uh uh to our movement. And it may feel embarrassing, but I'm gonna do this with you. We're gonna go through this together. And there's a and within that invitation, there's a uh that there should be a constant negotiation of like, is the person too uncomfortable? Are they too um they're feeling too stupid, too outside it, or are we able to lead them along a path? And maybe, maybe that's the thing as well, like maybe it's not movement, maybe that that idea isn't right. Maybe it's also the thing of like trying to get dance to be understood by many, many people is just a job too big, actually, often. Um, how do we reasonably invite everyone and ensure that they're following and it has that reciprocity that is so necessary in partnering and in dancing for it to remain consensual and for people to feel fully invited the whole time and and willing to consent? Like if if there's a thousand people, how do you hear when someone is not with you anymore? And does it matter? Is it okay? Yeah, is it okay that some dance is yeah, not for everyone, you know, as they say, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Not for everyone, but but yeah, yeah. I mean uh working with a uh audience expectation it's also might also be problematic. I yeah first because uh go to see a performance having expectation is the worst you can do, basically, in the sense that uh and we all do, so I'm not uh judging but like yeah, I'm like I choose that performance, so somehow from the choosing, and most of the time I have expectation, but maybe not also. I mean, we can also choose performance just because today I'm free and I feel like I want to see a performance. What there is there, okay. Let's photo take me, but because there's a photo doesn't mean much. I wonder how this a like expectation feeds into this consent um invitation, anticipation, accessibility anticipation and I mean a little bit like this is why when I was working with Sara and Lindstrom, I was like very interested by this idea that we all have a relationship to dance.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

Like even if we have no no professional experience or aren't even an audience of dance, um we we all have this relationship, and that's kind of the expectation, right? Like, oh I I understand what this is, what this should do. You think the trouble is often people come to a dance performance in a theater, um, or any other dance, perhaps even, but connected to the tradition of theater, which has this clear uh uh tradition of explanation and resolution, these clear dramatard dramaturgical um uh playbook almost contracts. Um and even there, that's not true, you know. They they challenge that as well, and it's it's it's uh questionable, but for for dance, it's um even more likely that it's unknown where it will go and what it's what it's about. It might not even have an about, it might not have an end in a traditional sense. It's very it's very telling in the dance studio, right? Like so often the dance is born in the dance studio, whereas in theater you come with a script and we're all working from the script and trying to get closer to understanding how to best meet with it, perhaps. Whereas in dance there is maybe an idea or a type of center, but it can shift, like it can it can become radically different, and if we think of that in the same vein as a script, it's um the idea that you could have rewritten the whole script by the end of the first rehearsal is not so common in theatre, and I think that sort of sets the precedent is that come with no expectations, um you you're building a toolbox almost to be prepared and ready for anything as a dancer, and you're trusting that like choreographic history of being with your body and other bodies as a tool to to find a direction. Rarely would you prepare a c character to come to rehearsal with, right? Like I've read the script and I'm gonna play it like this. This is my I I've prepared some um mannerisms or ideas of costume, maybe, or of direction, or movement, or tone, voice. You would tend to come quite open. And I I also don't like this conversation because it pits theatre against stance, which isn't what I'm trying to do. I'm just trying to say that we're often situated within the tradition of theatre, and therefore I think there's an expectation that we will behave like theatre, which is not often the case.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

No. Or at least in in because I mean in the more traditional dance it's still very strong the narrative of uh of a storytelling and so on. True. Also, I mean uh one I would say that also the storytelling uh or maybe the narrative, I don't know really what's the difference, but like it's uh uh it's still quite the the base of a lot of art. And I do think what maybe dance uh try to to do also is to still access allow for uh audience to access different systems of thought that can can feel maybe also a bit linear or a bit logic or not logic but like consequence, and this is what I mean, consequently with each other, and then feels uh through the senses, maybe less through uh uh uh less through representation. Um that that can make you enter the piece without maybe you still think maybe you have a lot of questions, but it's not like this means this, this I mean this. What is that as such? What is the resolution?

SPEAKER_02 30:34

And uh, I mean what we're talking about, like I was talking about movement earlier as being like the definitive um material of dance, and now we're talking about its relationship to theater, and then it's really great this remembering that of course there's a huge amount of dance that is about storytelling as well, um, especially the balletic tradition has this sort of um history, and these are also grand narratives of what dance is and should be, and how how they shape um our understanding. And I think this is something that we're all contending with in one way or another, be it um someone who has no uh professional experience or uh has a relationship to being a dance audience, or be it to us as professionals, we're constantly trying to uh sort of take a litmus test or like give a sense of what is the zeitgeist of what dance is or could be today, and then um work with that, be beside it, dance alongside it somehow. Yeah. These sort of grand narratives that sort of form and inform and shape um our general understanding of what dance is and they're really important. I was thinking how like how uh the idea of dance as movement it really provided a lot of like openings to extra space of what dance can be, and now we continue that dialogue, and we're I'm probably overlooking a grand narrative that is extremely strong now that uh many people are questioning, and maybe I'm not questioning Wow, I can't answer to that. Uh no, and also Yari, this is a it's I think what's fun is that uh when I made this workshop, I was a little bit like, really, we're gonna work on invitation, consent, and participation. Like this is not something, a topic I think I would naturally jump to as my first thing to do in a sort of dance workshop type situation. And yet it's so resourceful actually. Um and it it ties a lot into that when we were looking at stages and where we dance and how, and um what kind of contracts, as you brought up, um, we use with different publics and different um persons. Yeah, the the sort of expanded peripheries of dance, the expanded choreography of what makes dance, it's always for me at least so rewarding and so um generative to think around. And I genuinely don't have any uh uh idea of like what it I like and still thinking.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

Uh yeah, it makes me think it's in your baby performance you always have to handle like the the the parents of the babies, you have to always like address them to address the baby. Almost if you can't really go directly to the baby, but first yeah, like one of the uh parameters are just like that I even don't know if you consider the audience so much. Yeah, yeah, no.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Yeah, I don't I don't consider them audience, but the guardians, the adults, they of course affect the audience so much. So the the child, the baby is the audience, and then the mood or in which way what what the guardian provides them to be able to attend the the performance. But there you're you're really touching on so with the guardians, we're constantly thinking about expectations and how to secure them in the new expectations that we want to or like to um aid their expectations somehow, whereas the children no expectation, right? They don't even know they're coming, probably, right? And that's very that's very different. And then often we say like uh the guardians tend to understand it once they've seen it. Anyway, yeah, it's a pleasure. Uh it is you see you next time. Okay, see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Yeah, we will choose maybe yeah, thank you everyone for watching and listening.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Yeah, and uh maybe we join uh in a study session together soon. Yes, please. Message if you're interested in studying composition with us. You yeah, all right, ciao. Hey though.