DANCE REFLECTIONS 010 with Peter and Yari

Dance Reflections is a weekly Friday podcast with Peter Mills and Yari Stilo, centred on conversation, shared practice, and taking time to look back in order to think forward. The series reflects on recent episodes, past experiences, and ongoing questions around dance, life, and practice. Through talking, occasionally dancing, and revisiting shared histories, Dance Reflections creates a regular space for continuity, response, and staying in contact across distance.

Dance Reflections sits alongside two other podcast series:
PETER, dance with…, released every third Monday, where Peter invites a guest to dance one of their practices and reflect on it together; and DANCE WORKSHOP, released on the Mondays in between, a series of short audio workshops exploring dance through imagination, movement, and curiosity.

Watch videos of all Dance Reflections Episodes here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5iebzO4vouz_45v7u7SeYn6fpgp7uN2m

You can find more about all of Peter’s work at:
https://stillpeter.com/

Listen to the other podcast series here:
PETER, dance with…
https://stillpeter.com/peter-dance-with-podcast/

DANCE WORKSHOP
https://stillpeter.com/peter-audio-dance-workshop/

Music empty five by mobygratis

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:28

I have been um doing uh m my workshop. Yay rewrite my fire. Do you remember this one?

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Oh god, so beautiful. It's uh where did you do that?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

So for the for the selection process um of the BAs in dance at Escore Hall, um and I think it's a lot about texture, creating texture, finding visual textures to sort of create a uh a collective collage with with the other screens. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

We do a lot of like move the camera find something, show it, share it I see I guess I'm already answering our first question for what I've been dancing and you yeah too, I'm like I'm full of I'm full of dance I oh god uh tell me about it this morning I took a class with her mess with so bad.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

I'm so sorry. Yeah, yeah, she's giving a class in Kubrick. I know Seagal's in Berlin.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Is she yeah, German. I was thinking so I I know her from Germany.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Yeah, yeah, from Berlin. It just felt like Yeah, it was very inspired And she has this language I'm scared and I'm like oh my god yes No, I don't know, there is something interacting with language as usually Yeah is usually they have such a like uh I don't know there is something beyond language you know that I I don't know she communicates so well. It's kind of like Which cannot work like this, I thought. You know, the language, the only way for language to work is like clean and clear communication. It's like it's not like dance or body or like you know that somehow they can communicate you also other stuff. I think what's interesting is like summary also in our technical space.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Uh we we're also like losing language, and this is like glitchy um delay maybe of internet connection, and then you know, like the breaking up of microphones, the the different audio, the the the capturing, the the AI that sort of filters out certain sounds and things. Um I mean and with the this this workshop that I was doing, this like working with Zoom as well, like and the video, you there's such a it's such an interesting thing because it echoes actually maybe the difficulty of using language of um fully uh capturing exactly what dance is doing or what dance is for. So it's kind of interesting um in the same way as you're saying, like they they use language so well in in comparison to like yeah how hard it is to use language when describing dance. Or maybe anything.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Yeah, I mean in a way you're right, I mean language is not only it's not only words and grammar, it's also uh sounds a different way of sounding the so how you you you relate language body and language what uh also how the language can be also enhanced.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

The visual language is the tone of the language is there was uh there would there is a technological language, yes. Say, say yeah, and it's so interesting. There is there is there is uh there is um in Kohlberg there is um there is a dancer, I think it's called Panos. Is uh you he used a sign language. Uh-huh. Uh so there was also an in there was also an interpreter in the class. Oh wow. Nice. That would uh that would they would uh translate uh uh uh the words in into signs for for him.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

I'm um dancing outside of frame. We were speaking obviously we were speaking a bit about dancing for one oneself, um dancing um right part partial dancing, maybe partially captured, so like um there's this all these sort of impartial type things, and already I think then we are very close to what I was talking about in the workshop this week of copying and interpretation, uh, and this sort of the impartial nature of of copying and what we assume is copying, um of of um being close to or sort of like um translating into an order that makes sense that sort of um has its like yeah that feels good. I mean we I spoke about this of like you know we feel when it is closer or when it is further away from being good copying, and I wonder like how much of that is like yeah, you know, super like objective, or how much is like just a social agreement, like okay, I feel like there's a consensual um allowance, affordance in this room to say, like, oh, this is good enough. This is good enough, I'm close enough. And maybe and that's sort of embodied in oneself, like in one's own self-policing.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Yeah, interesting. Well, I suppose the main that we are really speaking about the main senses, maybe most of the time is visual, yeah, and how copying it could also be a lot about just creating similar status, um or make sure that the eyes got uh the same inputs, yeah. Well, I suppose. I mean, I don't know actually, but uh yeah, but I I maybe you're speaking about taxonomy, like like when it's like okay, that's a good that's that's the thing. That's the that visual thing is exactly the same or scoping.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

I don't know actually. I think I think the reason I was interested in like it's I do suppose working with it was because we do it so much in dancing, like it's such an important process. What was you gonna say?

SPEAKER_02 10:27

I do suppose yeah, I also think it's no no, but it's also one of the main points. I mean, learning tools we have in life, the the beginning the first learning tools, right? Copying. Yeah, so I'm also supposed, I mean, there's this connection between dance that is based a lot in coping and then learning how to live as human. Yeah, that is based also in copying. So there is also this such a big connection between dance and being human. Yeah, I think you also uh yeah, the copy, I don't know. It's not exciting to speak about the copy, but I do like you speak about this beautiful yeah, sometimes it's exciting to to just see how the simplicity of copying can make us feel like understand stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Um and can also like sort of provide a sense of agency, like that one then can act because they know within what the frame is they're acting, you know, in comparison to sort of like a free improvisation where the codes, the aesthetics are unclear, in copying the aesthetics feel readable because they're right there in front to be copied. And so the the ability to sort of own it and have control over the creativity of it is somehow a lot easier to understand.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Yeah, both from a choreographic perspective, from the choreographer perspective and from the dancer perspective. I mean, yeah. Also some it's it's it's very satisfying to get the task, it's it's to copy and to get as near as possible to that.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

I'm thinking, I mean, the synchronization also, I mean, it's so it's I mean, as a human thing, it's like it's so powerful too to to be together at the same time, yeah. And maybe it's it's coming back from the last episode, you know, following. Yeah, because copying is following. Yes. And when we are we are in a group, oh my god, I go back all the time at the same thing, so I'm so sorry about this. No, it's we are in a group and and we all like sing together, like we all follow each other, and we're all copy each other. I mean, it's such a powerful experience now.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Yeah, and that that's what I was maybe trying to allude to earlier was the consensus that is felt when one feels like they are doing a good a good copy of something, you know, when one is following well. Uh because I I truly believe like I mean that's what I was focusing on a little bit was like we know when we feel like we are copying well and copying badly. And I believe like when when one feels they are in consensus with the the group, you know, there's a sense of belonging, there's a sense of um existence almost, like my movement exists, it counts, it matters. I I matter in this composition. I am uh I am actualized as a clear compositional an amount in relationship to the composition, to the group, to the yeah. I mean, and that's not to say like all dancers want to feel is very expensive.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

I am equal and important and yeah, uh at least for me, maybe they want to probably all dancers want to feel that I do feel probably all dancers want to feel that what they do as a as a uh as important, like importance. I mean like if they're not there, it's different, yeah. And they they they make a change in what it is, and yeah, yeah. Ah, but maybe yes, go. But I also want to say that oh my god, I love the easy way of this uh what you when you speak about re-elaboration.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Say that again.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Real appreciation. Like how do you say re-elaboration? No, no, re-elaboration.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Ah, re-elaboration. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Maybe I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yeah, to to re-elaborate on something.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Yeah, I mean, you're speaking basically, uh, also that could be called maybe translation from one medium to the other. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

From uh one formula, ah, reformulation.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Maybe this is what I say. Reform and not this, I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

No, no, no, but I also like this re-elaboration, like it it shows a little bit of the process of your thinking. Because I mean there's something very interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 16:32

Like uh this idea of the one-to-one copying, is it there's an impossibility, even though you know, body like if it's like two bodies copying each other, the there's um they're very very close compared to say um like a body copying a sound or a sound copying a text, like they're fundamentally different, but also equally it sort of exemplifies maybe or um causes us to have to consider or think about that bodies are also different, but even the body, a body on body, yeah, exactly, and also bodies think differently, like it could it could definitely be that the body certain bodies are much more into rhythms than than and they are still maybe busy with the sort of like basically it could be that the same body also to reach the same things go to a different pattern, yeah. To reach the same copy the same things as an other body in itself, so it's like you in that sense it's it's a reformulation, it's uh it's what you exactly speak about.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

And I think the question then becomes like okay, so if we can't copy exactly one-to-one, uh then what are we doing and how? In what way are we reformulating and how can we practice that? And I think these practices of translation and reformulation and the creativity that comes with that is a really good way of like gaining knowledge and a felt sense of what it means when I feel as though I am I am doing a good copy or a bad copy. Because they're two different things, right? Like I can theoretically understand like this is a kind of copy, but it doesn't feel like a good copy, it doesn't feel like a good one-to-one, even though I can theoretically like argue, oh, but I will never be able to copy one-to-one. I can still feel as though like, oh, I'm really close. Like this feels like a copy.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

But also that this the step between reformulating and taking inspiration from it's very very little.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

I am I'm working on a little three minutes solo. And I am I am I got a poem from it. I took a poem, uh, someone gave me a poem for that solo, and and and I'm like the poem in itself, it's so it's so beautiful and open up things that open up to different people, obviously. And then I get into this, and then I start to create a connection and with my own experience and my own like images that nobody would order. You know, and then from there on I start to to dance, and then it's totally like it's like in some moment I'm like, yeah, that's a very like, yeah, I'm getting I am trying to embody, and then I'm like after it's like, oh, but this is really far. Yes, you know, this is just my interpretation, my connection to what what the image I get from the poem, nobody else can, you know.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Or me making a system out of this poem, also.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

And there's um I mean it's funny that you're working with how many. I worked with um choreographers that uh they show me exactly they did what exactly you said.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Oh what is going on Wow, the connection is really lagging. I think I'm missing parts of what you're saying. And but what I wanted to say was a little bit that there's something very poetic about the what you're describing, this sort of interpretive relationship um between materials. And sometimes I like to lean into that. I like to sort of give myself the permission to um to allow my personal in and I know it's extremely personal interpretation to be like enough. Like I don't need to doubt myself and I can sort of swim in there and enjoy that. And I wonder where that confidence comes from, you know, why why I don't necessarily need to feel validated in my reading why I don't need to find the the truth or the collective truth of it. Maybe it's just from having having looked at dance, been with dance for s so long. And it can be really powerful as well to sort of like I see this. And it it's like um like a meditation, in fact. Like using the object in in a way to sort of to untangle a thought or deal with a sensation or um a theme or uh uh something that I'm dealing with in my life, in my understanding of the world. Very curious what your poem is.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Yeah, it's uh it's a nice poem about uh Sphinx from Tova Gerg. About uh yeah, I mean it's not about Sphinx, it's about uh she bring up the Sphinx in her poem. It's about uh the need for space. Um nice. Uh and she yeah, it's uh it's both in English and Swedish.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

And she brings up the Sphinx, and it's such a like a mystical figure that opened up for me so much.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

We're so commodified. This is something I've been thinking about. In a way like to find spaces for certain types of being, certain types of living, certain types of life. We are pushed and persuaded and taught to believe that we have to uh purchase those experiences, those spaces. You have to buy into them, pay time to be in a dance class, to um to go to a nightclub, to take a coffee, to taste coffee, to be with others. Like that these things are these experiences and these parts of our lives, they're commodified and and in you know bigger way often they're extracted from us, like we're sold back our own life. Like if we take this idea that to be human is to dance and we're always dancing, and then we have to go pay to be able to live that part of our life to to watch dance, to be with dance, to dance. Someone was speaking, uh, was saying like that one of these AI companies had said something like um that the the AI wrote uh chatbot will or the AI will eventually provide intelligence. You will purchase an amount of intelligence. And the irony is like so rather than owning our own intelligence, we would buy intelligence. Rather than being intelligent, we would sort of purchase and they they equated it to like water, you know how you you pay for an amount of water from the tap or from the the convenience store or yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

But I also must say, I mean we we create a really um um we create a really complex experience. I had so many experiences with in in such uh I iteration iteration. I I I I went to class many days, many times, many different classes. So I also see that uh our desire for complexity or cultural in itself, it's uh grown so so much that yeah, it's commod co commodified, but also because the desire of complexity we want to have.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

In that case, in terms in the case of culture, of course, this is what I mean. Because of course, we go to see the performance and we can appreciate probably because we saw so many performances that kind, so we kind of recognize what we are seeing, and and we see the details, we see the color in different ways, the sounds and whatever that means, the values that we know that we already pre uh embodied. Yeah, so I'm thinking about that now the repetition of suddenly valued by us.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

And yet we're sort of craving and working towards um being surprised and challenged of our even our learned uh intellectual, like artgoing understanding of what art is and the codes and how to like we're also desiring that that is challenged in a way as well. And on a fundamental level, totally everyone should be able to connect with another body just in proximity because you know, just the sheer uh similarity of existence of being surely that is shared regardless of one's education or cultural heritage.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Yeah. We um Thank you for such a nice uh Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

We we have had a few technical like glitches and uh I'm tempted to say that's fine and we'll leave it in. Um if anyone is listening, please let us know your thoughts if we should improve our technical setup or if um if this is an expression of the uh the medium and the mode and the uh the difficulty of uh putting into the world uh these dances, these uh experiences that they have mediation through technology, through uh uh language, through uh convention, through systems and structures. And there is always a kind of glitch, be it one that is acceptable and tolerated, like punctuation, or one which is less tolerated, like uh bad editing, bad um or like poor technical equipment or poor internet connection. So yeah, I think that would be good, no? We if if people want to tell us if someone has listened this far, let us know.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

I yeah, would be super nice, and also I would add if they enjoy our dinner section of tonight, not dinner, sorry, evening section. Tonight we today we recorded in the evening, so ah you you do.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

I mean it's it's it's three three in the afternoon in America. I'm so sorry guys. I missed not I I blessed to uh that's also a thing. Now you you're tired and I'm sort of at the peak of my day. All right.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

No, but but yeah, that's it's like I can't tell more about that today.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Thank you, dear. Uh yeah, see you next week.