PETER, dance with Sara Ruddock

Today we danced with Sara Ruddock. Stay in contact with Sara at  https://sararuddock.com/.

• References:
• Trinity Laban - https://www.trinitylaban.ac.uk/
• Roehampton University - https://www.roehampton.ac.uk/study/academic-areas/arts-humanities-and-social-sciences/dance/
• Deborah Hay - https://dhdcblog.blogspot.com/
• Market 2009, by Deborah Hay
• Pauline Oliveros - https://www.deeplistening.rpi.edu/deep-listening/pauline-oliveros/
• Deep listening practice - https://www.deeplistening.rpi.edu/
• F choir - https://fchoir.com/
• Jenny Moore - https://jennymoore.bandcamp.com/
• Rajni Shah, performance artist, writer and producer https://www.rajnishah.com/

Transcript

PETER:
So, hello.

Sara Ruddock:
Hello.

PETER:
Today, uh, we are dancing with Sara Ruddock, um, and we’ve known each other for a long time, I think.

Sara Ruddock:
Yeah, I think so.

PETER:
But I don’t remember where we first met each other. I remember you were always such a friendly, um, and warm presence whenever we encountered each other in the different parts of Stockholm, in fact, because I was rarely here in London.

Sara Ruddock:
Yeah.

PETER:
So it’s kind of really nice to find myself now here, as you found yourself here in the UK, and connect with what that, what that’s done for you and your dance and your practice.

But specifically where you are: because you’re not working here very, very much at Laban, and you are creating choreographies here, and you are researching in a PhD at Roehampton. So there’s like a lot of really interesting things that overlap with my sort of curiosity and work that I’ve been doing in Sweden, and I get a chance to sort of meet that where it is with you here today.

So thank you for coming and dancing with me.

Sara Ruddock:
Thank you.

PETER:
And where are you today? Like, how do you describe yourself? Dancer, performer, person, human?

Sara Ruddock:
Yeah, all of those things. All of those.

Yeah, I moved to London, like, nine years ago now. And yeah, it’s been a really interesting sort of cultural experience, discovery, as we spoke about earlier when we met.

And… I am teaching and tending to my own practice, and I really enjoy occasions like this, where I can share practice and I talk about practice and find different sort of formats or modes for that. I find really interesting.

And yes, my PhD research has been ongoing for, like, seven years. It’s been through, like, across the pandemic…

PETER:
Of course.

Sara Ruddock:
… and yeah, caring for children at home. It’s been a lot of different sort of challenges that made it more stretchy than I ever kind of had imagined when I started out.

I was interested in kind of doing this PhD research because I wanted to dig deeper into my practice and kind of unpack what it was about, or how to be able to articulate what I was doing. And not just what I was doing, but really explore through the practice, to work with practice research, practitioner research.

And yeah, the system here in the UK is a bit different than in Sweden, for example, when it comes to artistic research. It’s not such an established field in itself. Like in Sweden, Scandinavia, artistic research feels really established. Like, we understand what that is. We don’t have to justify why we’re doing it, why artistic research would be good or helpful, or useful, or interesting at all.

And here it feels like there’s a lot more work you need to do in the institutions in, like, why this would be a good sort of methodology or approach to research.

PETER:
Yeah.

Sara Ruddock:
And what I offer. So I’m learning a lot from that, because I need to, you know, be articulating in a different way.

So maybe I haven’t done such a deep dive that I was sort of hoping for, in that kind of really working along with the practice, and sharing the practice, and discussing the practice with peers and with staff, that has not been that sort of research environment.

But I really sort of try to create my own way of doing the research and stay close to the field of dance and choreography. My peers are practitioners in London.

So yeah, my research is a lot about listening through the body, and listening through also activating voice and movement and vibration, and how there might open up listening in different ways; and tending to other people’s practices, like Deborah Hay and Pauline Oliveros and other artists, but then really working through studio practice.

And then sharing the studio practice through audio scores, sharing it with other people in workshops. So that became really key for me: that if there’s not the support in the institution to have this kind of collaborative research space, I need to create it myself.

PETER:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sara Ruddock:
So that’s what I’ve been really researching through: this kind of series of workshops, where I’ve been sort of sharing my practice, sharing the research, and seeing what is it in the exchange that can open up questions about resonance and resistance. These are two kind of things, concepts, bodily concepts, experiences, that I’m really interested in.

But how can we think through, and with, and move with, and listen with resonance and resistance? And how we are actually, as artist practitioners, using resonance and resistance, like the interplay between resonance and resistance, as tools, as a way of being an artist, as a way of being with our practices.

And that’s why I find it super interesting to get together with other artist practitioners also, to kind of make them visible, and to articulate it, and listen through that, so that we can, yeah, speak about it.

PETER:
Yeah, yeah. That’s what we’re going to do, of course.

Just to… yeah, I mean, articulation: like we were just discussing before starting, like, “Could you introduce yourself?” And it’s such, like, that’s just one of those things as well. It’s another opportunity or moment of, “Okay, how do I articulate who I am? What am I doing?”

And it’s so interesting that you say: within the research that you started, what was it, nine years? No, seven years ago. Yeah. You’ve been here nine years. So it was two years after you arrived, and you’re arriving in a new context and trying to articulate your practice within that context, and then looking for places where you can practice that articulation.

It’s so interesting, and still we’re continuing to do it, right? We find these hook words, which is so beautiful: resistance and resonance. And these different ways as well, like workshops, meeting people, and here, a podcast, to do those things. But it’s like an unfinished project all the time.

Sara Ruddock:
Yeah.

PETER:
That we just keep revisiting. Yeah.

And with that in mind, what are we going to visit today?

Sara Ruddock:
What are we going to visit? We will… I will invite you into some experiments. Mm hmm.

And I have, yeah, some different kind of bits of practice or activities that I find, I’m interested in how they might open up my sensitivity and attention to my listening. Yeah.

So we will do a backwards practice.

PETER:
Uh huh.

Sara Ruddock:
It’s walking backwards. We probably do that for about 15 minutes. It’s at least 15 minutes, we need to do it. And that is also a listening practice. Yeah. It’s this kind of listening whilst moving through space backwards. Mm hmm.

Do you want me to describe it a bit more, or is that something that we do later?

PETER:
No, you can describe as much as you can now. It’s nice for the listeners, of course, to then imagine what we will do when we pause.

But yeah, I think it’s quite well established. So we’re walking backwards, I assume, for 15 minutes. It’s quite a long time in this studio, I suppose we’ll turn around and come back…

Sara Ruddock:
Yeah. I mean, you need to find pathways through the space, and the good thing is there’s just two of us here in the studio, and it’s quite spacious. And we will just keep walking backwards.

So of course we need to have, you know, we will be two people, two bodies, moving in the space. You can slow down and speed up as you want to.

When I’m walking, there’s a natural rhythm. And what I’m curious about in this practice, why I like it, is because it’s being with several different things at the same time, and it’s helping me to not be fixed on a singular thing.

So it already is: if I’m walking backwards and I know that that is, like, the simplest sort of task that I’m doing, and I need to just navigate the space walking backwards, then I have the freedom to go at whatever tempo I want to, with whatever rhythm. There’s already a rhythm.

That’s like, I will work with the rhythm. So I don’t have to think about creating another rhythm.

So that’s something interesting about being with the rhythm for me, and how we can listen through rhythm. But I don’t have to go looking for it. No.

And that is, like quoting Deborah, and also because I’ve worked with Deborah Hay and performed and adapted one of her solos, Market (2009 or 2010), in Stockholm. Working with her practice was really quite, it felt almost like revolutionary in a way for me, in how I practice as a performer generally, and how I tend to listening, or attention giving, how I practice attention giving, and how I work with perception as the material, as Deborah speaks of: the perception as the material for a choreography and performance. 

And if I’m already walking backwards, and there is going to be a rhythm because I’m going to take step after step, but there’s already so much information there. I can play with nuances and subtleties of: what is that rhythm? How is it changing?

There’s always going to be the rhythm of my breath. It’s always with me.

PETER:
Yes.

Sara Ruddock:
And that’s something that is very present when I’m walking backwards, also for a long time.

And also because I’ve been doing different kinds of practices of “how do I listen through the body?” How do I listen through the skin, through the touch sense? How do I listen through my ears? How do I listen through vibration, like a really physical experience, a visual experience?

So when I listen to sound, or when I listen to my own voice vibrating inside of me, and through me, and around me, if I take away more of the auditory, can I sense more through my body?

PETER:
Yeah.

Sara Ruddock:
If I also listen through the eyes, being touched through what I see. So I have all my senses with me.

And also, when I tend to practice a bit longer, I do like doing it for 20 minutes, but I will do it for 15, I think that’s enough for today, then it’s also kind of letting different kinds of listening move through me. Because I’m curious about the moments when we try to kind of perform listening. We try to get the listening right.

PETER:
Yeah.

Sara Ruddock:
And when it feels like a failure, that I’m not doing the listening as you’re supposed to be doing. And I think that’s such a trap for us as dancers, performers, and practitioners: the aesthetics of listening.

PETER:
Yeah.

Sara Ruddock:
“This is what it looks like to be listening in a certain way.” And then there might be all sorts of other things going on, but I’m trying to perform this listening, which is so weird. And so useful to go, you know: “No, what is really happening?”

I really want to be with what’s actually happening. I’m not trying to perform anything. I’m not trying to achieve a certain kind of listening. But can I let my listening move as it wants to?

It can be a delicious practice like that. Like: I’m moving with my listening as it wants to move. And the physical task I’m tending to is walking backwards and listening at the same time.

Then I can also let other dimensions of listening come in: what’s the present moment; the past coming in; future; imagination; fiction. How do I feed myself? Different states, different dimensions: what is coming in whilst I’m moving?

And also, the walking backwards practice doesn’t restrict the rest of my body. If I feel like my arms need to move in certain ways whilst I’m walking backwards, that’s totally possible. The rest of my body can do what it wants to do, and my voice can do what it wants to do.

My breath is gonna sound, it’s gonna move, it’s going to be present. If there are sounds on my breath, or sounds that want to come out, I’m not going to restrict that. That can be an invitation.

I can add layers, I can take away layers, I can use it as I want to. But the basic task is just: walk backwards in some way for 15 minutes and listen, and tend to give attention to what is happening, or what is coming through in my listening. So there’s a kind of listening journey along this…

PETER:
Yeah, I’m super excited. I was going to make my first question: “Okay, but what is listening?” And I feel like you’ve very well described the sort of palette through which that can live. It’s very clear.

So shall we go do that?

Sara Ruddock:
Yeah.

PETER:
And then we come back?

Sara Ruddock:
Yeah.

PETER:
Okay. Let’s do it.

Sara Ruddock:
Great.

PAUSE

Sara Ruddock:
We can talk for a little bit.

PETER:
Yeah, 

Sara Ruddock:
I don’t know. That’s breaking the format of just talking at the end. But we could talk a little bit.

PETER:
We should always break the format.

Sara Ruddock:
Yes. Good. Resistance.

PETER:
Oh yeah, resistance, resonance.

So for me, at first, I was like, “Oh wow, my hearing is so frontal.” I was very aware of how hard it was to know where I was going. So this reorientation, and then focusing on something that we’re essentially doing all the time, was so crisp, so focused, in a way.

And there’s something about walking backwards which feels more like falling than, those famous texts, right, that walking is always falling. But backwards really feels like falling.

Maybe just to skip to the end of what came up for me: this thing of obstacles, or habits, like catching oneself when they’re falling, being confronted by them through this task.

Same with: my breath makes a sound, but I’m not sounding it. I’m often actively trying to be quiet. And it’s almost like an obstacle, because it’s something I’m always doing but unconsciously. It’s so in me. It’s so me.

And also just walking into walls, like literal obstacles in the room, I’m so used to avoiding that. And there’s something about listening that made me start to see the edges of those decisions that are motor… like they’re in my motor system. That was really cool.

Sara Ruddock:
Nice.

PETER:
How about you?

Sara Ruddock:
Oh, that was so nice doing it in the space together. I really like this sort of subtle…

PETER:
Yeah. Oh god, yes.

Sara Ruddock:
…just like a subtle conversation. You know, there is a conversation already, so we don’t have to make it a conversation. But just to be with that in the space together, it’s so rich. So I very much enjoy that.

And what I really like about this kind of backwards practice is that I’m going backwards and forwards at the same time.

PETER:
Yes.

Sara Ruddock:
You know, I feel like I’m going forwards because I’m moving somewhere, and it’s “forwards” in the sense of what I recognise as forwards, but it is backwards through the back of my body, and I get to do it at the same time.

And I get so much touch support through the back of my body, through the air I’m moving through, feeling the air rushing past my neck, feeling met by the air through the back of my body. It’s such a great experience, because, yeah, like you say: the frontal is what we’re working with all the time as dancers, movers. How can I balance out this dominant frontal approach?

It’s helping me to go, “Ah, I see my back.” And there’s something about how my seeing changes, because it doesn’t reach for places like I do when I walk forwards. When I move through the back, it’s like I’m leaving the space. It’s like the space is opening up in the backwards way.

So it’s more like I’m letting things come in that I’m leaving behind. The distance is increasing, and I’m catching things with my eyes as the distance increases. That’s a really interesting backwards way of doing it, and almost changes my way of being with.

PETER:
It almost, yeah. That connects to the obstacles, or habitual, things that are in me.

Doing it for so long is almost nauseating. 

I feel a little bit dizzy. But there's something in doing it that I recognize I could have always walked backwards, but I've just done forward so much, and then the whole thing becomes less about, it is about backwards. It's about meeting actually those and listening to those choreographies that are internal to us that are already there, so to speak, and sort of like performing on us and exactly like the relationality is so strong and subtle and beautiful, and also codified ways of being together come up, like, you feel the second we get in rhythm and there's a sense of flocking, like a compositional, like, woosh..

Sara Ruddock:

yes. 

PETER:

We're moving together and there's something about the dynamic as well of falling backwards, like, it has this very release, like, woo, flow and push. And then I'm confronted with like, oh, is that habitual, or is that and then how am I composing actually? And it's all there. It's in me, the relationships that we have with one another, which is so interesting. 

Sara Ruddock:

I'm also, like, really giving myself permission. It's like, when I feel that rush of like, we've got, like, there's like this vortex or something.. It's starting to happen, like falling through this vortex together, and there was like sound and the rhythm was kind of locking in and it's like, oh, this is a delicious sensation. It's just like such a pleasure to be in it. I like, I gave myself permission to, like, enjoy this for a while. and then see like, okay, and totally acknowledging this, like, okay, this is what it is. And I recognized, you know, the how I'm drawn to it. And that's what like the interests of resonance comes in for me. It's like, what am I? Ah, like I was like this feels really nice. And it's like how I can find openings of breaking that or not even like brakings maybe too strong a word, but something about the shift, like the tiniest shift to kind of open up the other potentials or the possibilities of like being with that. Yeah, that that's like, I know like I'm in this, but I can also feel the potential for lots of other different kinds of movement, and I know that this is not, I'm not fixed or stuck in this by… [alarm] oh gosh. Maybe I set two alarms.

PETER:

Yeah, you may be snoozed, but that's good. Maybe that means we should move on to the next. But me to add like there's something of Yeah, it's not breaking, but maybe it's listening, actually. 

Sara Ruddock:

Yeah. 

PETER:

There's a quality of being with, like you say. Yeah. But just listening to those emergencies of like, oh, I have this skill almost or ability. And because it's backwards and because it's because it's in a dance studio maybe and it's between us to dancers, they seem those skills seem very luxurious. I'm like, my God, my body learned this. I'm so impressed that you remembered, even, that that it has that capacity to go back into those beautiful dance qualities and dynamics and the tensions and relationships. And then it makes me wonder, but could we even appreciate the forward as well? So then I start to listen to things that I've maybe, I’ve under appreciated as well. And there's this constant, beautiful, opening. So definitely I agree, like, yeah, I didn't mean to say, like, oh, it's a habit, therefore, I'm trying to, like, negotiate, like, oh, should I go with the habit or should I go against the habit, break the habit? But more, like listening to what is there? Yeah. Yeah, it's super cool. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have anything else on this or should we move on? How do you feel? 

Sara Ruddock:

What did it feel like for you to stop? 

PETER:

It is intense. There was a very intense moment, because partly because of the dizziness as well, and then just sort of reorientating and feeling a little bit like it felt wrong to go forward. That was the strongest thing, and. And it's so pleasurable. I also felt like.. Why are we stopping? Like, if this feels too short? Because also I was there's a clock in the room, so I was sort of like, " huh, I thought we said 15, but it felt like, from the clock, it felt like 30. And I was like, and then I was like, maybe you said 50" And then I was really disappointed that it wasn't 50. I was like, "Oh, I could have really done 50. So that it had a little that these things come out. Why, why? What were you thinking about? 

Sara Ruddock:

No, because it's like just strong experience, like lots of different sensations and kind of, I don't know, I feel when I stop it's like this a lot of a kind of tingling feet but mostly like the world is kind of rushing towards me. It's this kind of being sucked into it's like a weird, kind of sucking feeling through the body that it's like, I don't experience otherwise. 

PETER:

Yeah. You are right, that visual preception

Sara Ruddock:

I do experience after doing this work And then I stop and it's just like... It comes at me and I just I just sit in this sort of waterfall or something for a while until it's sort of releases or fades. 

PETER:

I mean, and that's what you did. You went and sat down and because of my, you know, like, I'm sure you could as well, but like my initial thing is to like, break out of it and like, okay, okay, what's now? And I host a little bit, 'Cause there's this weird shared hosting that we have in this type of podcast situation, but I recognize that, no, no, no. You're taking a moment. Sara is taking a moment to sort of, yeah. And so that was really nice to be invited into that, non verbally, as well, actually, into a moment of like.. And then at some point, I was like, I feel like I need to write. And then you come over and say, "Let's take a moment to write." And I was like, I was already there. And then you said, oh, you're such a good student, which I was like, yes, yes, I did it. No. Sorry, sorry. 

Sara Ruddock:

That was a joke. 

PETER:

Oh, 

Sara Ruddock:

Oh, you know, in a very loving way, as in, it's just, yeah, there's also, like you said, listening to the reflections to like, you know.. No, but how are we do things and why, why it make sense to write something down? Why is it that comes up? It's super interesting. Yeah, that's true. Why is that there is. But there's definitely a kind of have, bits of experience. It's like, ah, I want to. There was something there that was interesting to me and I just want to note that. Yes. Yeah. down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. 

PETER:

But I think there's something very, because I still have that question from the beginning of like, you say, and we're going to listen and then you describe listening and it has this breadth and complexity that you're inviting to it. And still, I think even after doing it, I'm still in a little bit of a place of like, wait, what is listening? And in relationship to the cognitive, not the cognitive, sorry, the sort of motor structure of our being, of our physical experiencing of the world, like, what is listening in relationship to that, in fact? When it steps out of, like recognized pathways and it all meets with the pathways that we sort of have in us. There's something so curious, it's so fascinating and then exactly like, yeah, it need to write and then there's even a there's a listening to the writing that it all on tops 

Sara Ruddock:

yeah, I also like listening to it's like thrown an intuitive sense, like intuitive felt sense of like this is what makes sense in this moment and I don't have to you know, like rationalize it or and how we work with that as dancers as well in our practices and kind of cultivate that intuitive felt sense of like, no, it feels wrong to go over here, but like, this is what it is, you know, and you don't know quite why or it's, you know, just giving yourself permission and the space to be able to do that in different ways and yeah, generally, I think it's backwards practice for me. It's like inviting that in. I, you know, I was really drawn to the wall for a while. I was brushing my hands against the wall, or like they were being brushed because I was walking backwards. It was a sense of like, oh, they have to be dragged along, kind of the wall. And then I had this really powerful sensation of my hands sort of like, really buzzing from the tactile kind of touch of the wall for a long time. Afterwards, it. Yeah, I mean, all these like little choices, or like what was sort of drawn to in the moment and there's something about shifting that or the movement, how with this potential to move from the more kind of subconscious and through intuitive felt sense into like very kind of rational thoughts coming in and how we move through these different sort of layers as in our practices and how we can access them and appreciate them, you know, like for what they are and like how they can. There's movement in between. We don't need to be also stuck in one and it'd be interesting to, you're not thinking by a hierarchy or kind of like a different expectations, like how we work, you know, yes, as dancers, in our practices, but also like, okay generally like in the world, in society, politically, was sort of, what's the messaging around what is being valued enough and often, you know, the body and the intuitive felt senses like much lower down on like the hierarchical sort of. They sort of like, how do we advocate or kind of articulate these these knowings or experiences or trusting and intuitive felt sense and still also being able to question our choices.. 

PETER:

Yes exactly

Sara Ruddock:

So it's this moment, like you say, it's like, ah, I'm being drawn to this. So I'm like, I'm really resonating with this. It's like, yeah, but why? Yeah, yeah. You know, I can think about, I can take time to think about why is that? And why is that so I like, I really enjoy this and why, and why does that come from and where is like the conditioning and background and history and like, ohmm, I'm I really sort of, I'm afraid a really resistant against something. And like, why is that? And why does that come from? 

PETER:

Yes. yes yeah.

Sara Ruddock:

But that I really sort of use this resonance and resistance in like, as like valuable information. And I can look at that as like,. I, you know, it tells me something about. Also, I'm curious about you're doing all these podcasts and asking people to kind of like share a bit of practice with me, and you do it. And, something about, like being told what to do or when it's like, he's the task, and we're going to engage with it. and how you step into that with both resonance and resistance. It's like, how do I find my own way? Yeah. How do I find a way that makes sense for me that it's not me, just doing the thing, by actually finding a way to kind of like, I have agency and I have presence to kind of experience something within this frame, I need to make the frame work for me. And that kind of practice of resistance. Like that, I'm really curious about how that works. 

PETER:

It's really fun that you bring it up. It's something that I probably don't dwell on too much, but it's true. And then it also, because it's something I don't dwell on too much, partly because I'm working. I'm like doing the podcast often. So my focus is there, just trying to get it done, but it connects to my like dance history of like, how do I relate as a dancer? Because I was thinking about it this morning and how, in a way, I've put myself in a very dancely role of I will come in I will dance within your proposal or practice or dancing or beside your dancing, and there's something. very interesting for me in that because I've struggled as a dancer, because it's sort of following the the choreographer has been always a little bit fraught, which is so silly to say, but I think it often has to do with it because I come with a lot of questions, a lot of resistance and a lot of, like, resonance maybe if I really borrow from you, but definitely resistance questions and, wow, why, why? And maybe there's something in yeah, in this relationship where, like I said, like, I'm host and your host, we're both hosting simultaneously. But there is, in that little pause where we go and we dance, there is a funny thing that sort of occurs, where I've gone from being the person taking care of the situation to all of a sudden, being the person trying to honor the other person's position in that relationship. But maybe if I can. I don't know if it connects. Now you've had me, like sort of gone on, a little biography, but maybe it connects 'cause when you were talking just now, I had to think of, like, there's something really powerful about, like, you were talking about society, like, it relates to society. And I think not to be dance-centric, I really try to avoid this sort of sense, like because we're talking about dancing and doing dance, therefore, dances is a lens through which we should all look at society. But everyone does stuff, you know? And I feel like that's what we're dealing with is the doing of things. On a real sort of fundamental level and exactly like, how do we rationalize and not, how do we go with intuitive felt sense? And at the same time, live within a sort of world which pushes us to rationalize these things. When ultimately, if we don't engage with those two processes that happen, then people will just continue doing stuff physically, bodily, in the world, without investigating them. So it feels really essential then, like, actually what we're doing is really important, because as as people dancing, you can't rationalize everything. Like, as we're walking, you just, it fails because we are an amalgamation of physically constructed things which have come through years and years of experience and having just done stuff. So there's something really magical there. I don't know if it relates back to the question you had for yeah. 

Sara Ruddock:

Yeah, no, I think it really brings up, like a yeah, questions around, like, or, you know, feeling that tending to engaging in some of these practices or listening in different ways or becoming aware of giving attention to my listening in different ways. The what, you know, that it might hold potential for, you know, expanding the way I listen. 

PETER:

Yes. 

Sara Ruddock:

Or being able to stay with sticky stuff for a bit longer or like unknowns as we, you know, whatever that might mean, you know, but that is. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious about that, you know, the expansive, potential for resonance, the expansive potential for listening, and how these practices can change us or open up or enable, just like softening or breaking or making the listening a little bit more porous, so that I can open it. 

PETER:

Yeah.. It's so inclusive. What's still more that you wanted to try? Should we jump into something? 

Sara Ruddock:

Let's do something for like 10 minutes. 

PETER:

Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Cool. 

Sara Ruddock:

Okay, um Yeah, we can we do the. We can either call it. the resonator. Mm hmm. Or we can call it the friendly echo. Okay. And, depends on what. Or you can call it lots of different things.. Yes. resonator sounds like, you know, just think of the terminators.. But it makes me smile. So it's good. It's useful because it makes me smile and feels less precious about these things and it really helps. So, shall I describe it? 

PETER:

Yes, please. Please. 

Sara Ruddock:

Let me try. We're going to start. We're also like a simple kind of physical task, but our starting shoulder to shoulder. It's just. Then like invite things that's like a bit of physical touch. That's like, there's a touch sense that is like going through the kind of the practice. And they can change. It doesn't have to be kind of shoulder to shoulder the whole time, but it's, it can, you know, the kind of moving from, like from the shoulder to the back to the shoulder to the arm, it's like, okay, that's like a frame that we can move within. Whilst we're doing other things. So it's also like, just helping to to activate a touch sense, the physical, kinesthetic sense in a very clear, direct way. We're going to take turns. to. I'm going to invite you to sound, as in, like, voice, vocalize some sound. 

PETER:

Okay. 

Sara Ruddock:

And it can be any kind of sound, but you also don't need to feel like you have to like perform in a certain way, or like fill the space with a certain kind of sound, but it's more like an utterance, you know, like We've been moving with the breath and moving like in these backwards practices. There's been like an activation or like, okay, there's like breath and like vocalized sensation of like a breath or there's, there's like sound coming out of me. and hopefully feel like I'm a bit more connected to like this, like inside that comes out. We've activated that. And so if I kind of invite that again, it's like, okay, I can like that can be like sound coming out, that I want to kind of taste.. And I'm kind of tasting these sounds out in this space, you know, that's like, or it's going to be around me because we're close, it can be, you know, it can be quite quiet. But I'm going to be your friendly echo. 

PETER:

Okay. 

Sara Ruddock:

Like, whatever sound you're making, I'm going to like sound, like taste it. Yes, okay. I'm going to be your echo. Yeah. Like your resonator. Yeah. So if you make a sound, I'm going to, yeah, try it out or taste it or like feel what f does it feel like for me. And I might repeat it again. It's like there's no end to like when the echo stops. It's like it can be an endless echo, but, you know,'s some sort of like conversation in that you can make another sound or there's another utterance coming out and I will taste it and there was a means that is kind of, I'm offering for your sound to exist in the space for a bit longer. There's like a lingering sense of I'm going to make it sound for longer. Nice. Well, and you can listen to it. You don't have to sound. It's like, okay, I can listen back to it. And I don't have to copy your sound. So the task is not to copy. Like, I don't have to make it as close as, you know, sound exactly, like your sound. But the way that it's also part of the practice that, you know, the sound changes as it moves through my body in my voice. So there's something about the transformation of sound or how echoes being transformed when it bounces off a surface.

PETER:

Yes

Sara Ruddock:

You know, or like how it meets the surface and come out in the space again.. You know, it's affected by, you, the quality of that. surface.. So the quality of of the sound coming out through me in the kind of like,, how that sounds. I will play with that and kind of but just a kind of the friendly part is like I'm just holding space for you to hear a bit of so of your sound, for a little bit longer. But it exists. Like there's a lering aspect to your sound. And then there would be another sound coming out and then, you know, place that try that and you know, let it linger a bit. 

PETER:

Okay, that sounds good. 

Sara Ruddock:

That's the invitation. And then after a while, so maybe we take five minutes or something and then and then. or maybe just a few minutes. And then we we can swap. Yes. And then I'll make sound. 

PETER:

And we're doing this all back to back or was it shoulder shoulder once? 

Sara Ruddock:

If we start shoulder to shoulder then it's like, okay, that's like. So there's a back connection. space. There's like some kind of conctionation.. It doesn't mean, you know, so we can move through the space as we want to. We can move, you know, up and down and around and sit down or whatever. But it's like just staying like reactivating in just another sense. Also. So there's like outside touch inside touch. 

PETER:

Yeah, 

Sara Ruddock:

through the voice. Something, something that is just hmm.. layering and being in conversation and a bit more. Yeah. Kind of lay Yeah. Yeah. lay it way. 

PETER:

No, it sounds great.. Resonance and resonator or the. Friendly echo. 

Sara Ruddock:

Friendly echo

PETER:

Yeah. Nice. Let's do it. 

Sara Ruddock:

Okay, let's do it. 

PETER:

Yeah.

PAUSE

PETER:

Yeah, so, yeah, it was a little taste. 

Sara Ruddock:

Yeah. 

PETER:

That's what you were saying. 

Sara Ruddock:

Yeah.. 

PETER:

Yeah, it's, uh.. It's quite full, quite rich, as a place. And is this something you've done before as well, or? Yeah. 

Sara Ruddock:

Mm hmm. I think when you have a bit longer time with it and also like the.. setting it up. Yeah, yeah, of course. So that really there can be, you know, like the, yes, the sounding, but the listening is like the focus. Yeah. As in like, yeah, by me sounding, it's also like a simultaneous listening. So it's like, as I'm making the sound, as I, you know, if I do the practice for longer, then it's not so much about producing the sound, but it's I'm listening to the sound, this is coming, kind of being formed in my throat, in my mouth, in the way, the kind of enters just the outside space, how it enters my ears, how I feel it, like through the, and if I I've been practicing with that more before I could have worked together with another person, then it's like, okay, I'm like tasting the sound, feeling the sound through the body and like, through the vibration and then the sound is being offered back to me by this other person. 

PETER:

Yes, yeah. 

Sara Ruddock:

You know, there's something about and you can. Yeah, when you do it for longer, I experience, you go kind of past the kind of play of the sounds themselves, but more into like the what it's to come. 

PETER:

We were there a little bit. 

Sara Ruddock:

Yeah, yeah. 

PETER:

I mean, but. And also you added this, at least as how I understood it. Like, we passed over and and then I was echoing you and then we sort of did a simultaneous echoing of whatever is resonating in. And what was really interesting was I was starting to get moments where exactly, I think what you were describing of you no longer are going places, because there's really something in making sounds and making different sounds that you go to like, and now I'm going to work with my diaphragm or now I'm going to work with my nose or. But then staying in there or like with just the smacking of the lip sort of sounds and at the end we were really with just the breath almost. And it was hard, actually, I was finding it hard to distinguish. What were sounds that we were making and sounds that were the room and this this sort of weirdness or even our bodies, right? Like what am I am I making, what is and what is not sort of, yeah, blends together? So I can really imagine, yeah, with more time and like deepening into this sort of practice. I love that place. 

Sara Ruddock:

I love that place of the blurring, like you't name it. It's like when I, like I can barely, I like the edges of listening. It's like I can barely hear something. I'm not sure that if it's like where the sound is, you know, if it's like the sound from me or you together, there's something about being immersed in the sound or when you just barely hear it because it's so low, the volume or like you said, you know, where is it coming from? Is it like the outside sort of murmurings of like the fan or vibrations and things, you know other other sound sources. And it's something that I also I sing with F choir, which is a London based choir, led by Jenny Moore, who is the artistic director. And I'll be with them for four years. And there's something about the singing practices and singing with other people, are kind of, let's call it chiring. Yeah. that is being immersed in the sound in the in the vibration, in the way that I no longer, I can't distinguish my own voice from like the other person, you know, like other people's voices and like we're in the vibration together and I can feel that I'm producing sound. Like I know I'm making sound, but my voice doesn't stand out in the field of vibration. and there's something about that that I, you know, I'm curious about in this kind of resonator friendly echo practice. It's like that's where I can both kind of sound the sound and hear the sound afterwards, but as with sounding starting to sound at the same time, that it's like the blending of their vibration is both like a very, like it's inside of my body and it's outside of my body with my sound, and it's your sound, and I can feel it also coming in, like how sound enters my body's vibration. It's not just through my ear and the ear canal, but it's like really through the skin and through my body, through the bones. and that whole range of you can really feel like a vibration in your like really bass sounds and bass frequencies and like really heavy kind of bass beats and you can like feel it in a very visceral way. Both are kind of pounding beats, but also like a vibrational, visceral vibration in the body. And the voice is so cool, that I find a way that it's kind of how he works with the vocal cords and like all the vocal faults in the body and the air and coming out of the to kind of how produced a sound and yeah, being in that vibration. And it's like a microcosm of the, it's like with just two people it's like we're in this little vibrational space together and it's an interesting space to listen to and listening to the the edges of when a sound ends.. I think Pauline Oliveros’ is American composer created the deep listening practice, you know, ask questions about like, you know, what is the edge? Like when was the edge of the sound or when does the sound end you know exactly, yeah. Because it's also like in my memory. Yeah, yeah. So it's also like in my memory, in my imagination, in my felt sense, it's like, there's like a lingering sense of the sound, even though I can't the sound is not ringing or vibrating like in the air. still, but it's like vibrating in me in the kind of immediate kind of aftermath of feeling. 

PETER:

I actually noticed that with the first dance that we did of Walking Backwards, like I was immediately struck by, I am seeing the past, which is kind of what you were describing, probably with the sort of moving, and then when we stop the sort of everything moving towards, which had been going away, and sort of this change of movement. But because we're listening and we're walking backwards, I was very aware like the sounds have happened. There's something about that they have happened. And one way or another, and especially because you bring up the deep listening practice and all her work, it begs the question of, is listening a verb? Is it a doing word? Like, do we do it? I know it sounds stupid, but like, there's something in the activity and exactly what you're describing now about being in the choir of, are we making sounds? Like, is there a creative act to listening? And if so, what where does it exist? Because it's of course, counerintuitive. Like, there's a sense like, well, you're not creating anything by listening. It's it's a passive thing, you know, almost. And also, it's not something you can't you cannot do as well. We can't close our ears like birds can. Like we don't have ear lids. We are always listening. So and yet, I think there is. It's obvious, there is a space of creativity, making, of of art, maybe. I'm struggling for words. 

Sara Ruddock:

Yeah, but I'm really interested in this kind of creative aspect of listening, like the same, because the way Pauline Oliveros describes it, it's like, yeah, hearing is like a physiological thing. If you hearing is available to you, you know, as a person, it's through your auditor system, hearing can also be like a vibrational sense if you' a deaf person then, you know, you can hear in different ways, but if it's through the auditory system that you are able to perceive, you know, sound, then hearing is happening, that is a physiological thing, but listening is something that I can direct, and I can be creative with, because listening is giving attention to something. And there's something about the quality of like how… the connotations around listening, that is helpful, I think for the sense of listening through the body and how I give attention. It's like at a certain quality kind of to listen to sound. Yeah, yeah. And it's like I can practice that through the body. But also that I can you know, thinking about, like you're in a you know, in a busy kind of crowded space, maybe in in a bar or a club or like that's like an hour, like a social like a lot of a lot of people talking and you can really direct your listening to the one person you're speaking with. But while it's super loud around you, that's an amazing ability, skill to be able to go, like, I'm zoning in, honing in on just your sound, your sound. And I can like direct my listening.. Which means that I can I can become aware of my listening. I can have agency through my listening. I can have the capacity to change my listening. I don't have to be stuck in a pattern of listening. I can notice my listening habits. I can notice my listening patterns, what I'm drawn to, what I'm listening to, what I'm not listening to. When I stop listening, when I start thinking about, you know something else, instead of actually listening to what a person is saying or what the conditions are or what the environment is like, what is the situatedness of like this present moment? Can I listen to that or am I busy with other things? You know, why am I listening to that are thus, I feel like, you, from engaging in deep listening practices, is really I think the empowering sense of like I can listen, yeah, like Pauline says, like it can be like a focal listening. I can listen to detail. I can send my listening. It's like, ooh, that particular sound, like either like there's a soundcape or like sounds that happen, like environmental sounds, like in the space that I'm in, or like in music, I can direct my listening to just one instrument, one voice, one sound that is far away, or that is close. I can listen to my breath. Yeah. Or I can choose not to listen to my breath and I listen to the clock over there. And then I can't hear my breath. Yeah. Because my attention is over there. And that's super interesting. Or like a Pauline says, you can listen to like the global, you can listen to try and listen to like everything at once. 

PETER:

Yeah. 

Sara Ruddock:

And the range in between of like, listen to several different things. Can like, you know, at the same time. It's, like a really cool experiment. Like I've listened to these three things. I listen to these three things together. Yeah. I'm directing it into one place. And then being creative about that. And yeah, Rajni Shah, who is a performer, and kind of performer philosophy, a scholar, researcher, and works a lot with listening is, yeah, I was supposing the question of like, what what what if I can be changed by my listening or what does it take to be changed by my listening? There's a something in that. It's like, okay, I'm listening. But what does it take to be changed by my listening? As in like being transformed by it or like open up or something shifts within me? Because I listen to what another person says or what the situation is or like how I give attention. It's actually, it's, you know, work and it's like a choice and there's agency in like how I can go, oh, you know, there's space to be like the openness for that, like the the availability in me in not. And there's something there where the quality of resonance, the resonance is not about kind of the direct self- mirroring or the self-reflection of like that is just confirming my kind of strongest sort of, I don't know, ideas or beliefs or preferences or something about, oh, I don't recognize this but if I stay with it a bit longer, I stay with it and I listen to it and I try and stay open to it, it might change or open or shift something in me so that I can, you know, relate to the situation or person or whatever it is in a different way. So that's like the, yeah, it's definitely creative. Listening is definitely a creative practice. What has the potential to be a creative practice. 

PETER:

Yeah, yeah. No, it's nice to be reminded of the hearing and listening distinction that you can make. It's really powerful. And I mean, and you're working within a dance context, you're working within a dance knowledge as well. And of course, then there's questions of what is listening in relationship to dance? And I think what's really interesting is, I think it really presents quite an interesting consideration or like a definition of dance, maybe, where you were speaking earlier a bit about like listening, being interested in listening as a performative act. Like, how do we? Or what changes in that performativity of listening, of like directing our attention, as you say, and there's something in the performing of dance or even the act of dancing where you perform an awareness or a focus or an attention towards some conditions of the bodily experience, which you don't get elsewhere and it's not about production or it doesn't have to this part of dancing, this shift of a awareness, isn't solely about production. It's not about producing a sound, like to be heard or to be to be listened to, or producing a movement to be a certain way. It It's a shift of understanding those bodily conditions and so on. It's really fascinating, like something about. Because  dance isquite embarrassing as like a task, right? 

Sara Ruddock:

In what way? 

PETER:

In way. In the way of we allow ourselves to do very strange things. And when it's performative dance, we allow ourselves to do strange things in front of other people. I mean, even social dance, if we cast aside that as nonformative, then we're still doing a strange activity physically, and there can be a sort of weirdness an embarrassment. It's sort of comes to that. But the sort of brilliance that dancers bring often is this confidence to do it regardless of any embarrassment that sort of might exist in that social committing to being attentive to a physicality or a way of being in front of other people, which you don't allow in other situations. And yeah, it's interesting that you've honed in on listening, maybe as a methodology to maybe touch on that quality that exists in dance somehow.. 

Sara Ruddock:

Yeah, no, I think it's, yeah, it's interesting what you're saying. I definitely think that a kind of training, the listening capacities, you know, my listening capacities as downstairs and like really listening through the body that is like, it's never also just through my ears, you know, like listening is the practice of attention giving to me for me. And there's so much about listening through touch that really kind of helps us in being touched by sound, being touched by the experience, being touched by them. The sensory information that I'm with as a dancer, and performer and with other people, other performers, and what it's like to be listening, like with the audience, if you're in a kind of performance context. What is it to listen to the situation, the atmosphere, like the environment that I'm in? What is it that I'm giving my attention to? What am I listening to? What are the filters that I'm coming with? What is like the performative ask or something as a dancer like, well, what is the, if I'm the choreographer myself or working with someone else's vision and we' collaborating on things, it's like, what is the filter that we're listening through? So these filters are also super interesting. I find as a performer. What is it? What's this sort of? The practice that we're listening through, as a filter and how that sort of changes the way that I access my body and relationality in my body, the way I'm being with other people and myself in this qualities or like the filters of this practice, the tasks that I'm in, what's the universe, that we have created, that we're inviting the audience into experiencing? And when I hone those, you listening qualities, capacities, so that I'm able to access them differently then I'm inviting to different experiences, you know, like an audience seem to. Okay, so this is like the kind of, and as we know the kind of kesthetic empathic capacity of human beings as we see and recognize movement equality, through mirror neurons, and the whole kind of cognitive neurological system of our bodies and how we kind of feel through another person's body by seeing it visually. And also by touch, of course, by in a dance performance context, it's like this is a visual mating point. It's like that's the transmission that were with the energy, how we can feel the energy and the space in the dancing moment. But there's something in that's like, okay, we train our listening capacities, we train our attention giving, so that we can also invite into different kinds of listening. Like we invite the audience into different kinds of listening. Yes. It's like, what is the quality of this kind of listening? Yeah. Or what is the. So it's encouraging. I think it's the potential to encourage like different different ways of listening. Yeah. Then you how you guide and direct and invite into a space where you're listening that. You direct the attention to what we're listening to and the filter that we're listening through and the kind of space for listening, how we set it up. 

PETER:

Yeah. Yeah. 

Sara Ruddock:

So there're also like performers, both as kind of, yeah, it's audience, you know, I practice listening. And it's and we can, yeah. I performmers in like invited different kinds of experience of this. 

PETER:

Yes. I feel like, as as an audience member, because exactly as you say, like immediately, if you think about listening as an activity, the audience are the ones that are sort of central. Like, very quick to go there, but I feel like the more I've danced, the more I've investigated and and put time into these kinds of practices and this type of work, as a dancer, I have I've improved my ability to be an audience, and it is this sort of capacity to listen. And also you do when speaking in these terms using filters as a way lenses through which to articulate understanding and perception and those mirror neurons, whatever's going on when we are in contact with dance, it is such a similar world to music, which makes so much sense in a way. Why dance some music I've had this sort of like long history, because there is a there's a very clear relationship if you think through the lens of listening as an approach to articulating one's understanding of what dance can do and be and yeah, it's fascinating. It's so cool. 

Sara Ruddock:

Yeah, it's interesting that it kind of you, how the visual, the visual listening. 

PETER:

Yeah. 

Sara Ruddock:

How I practice the visual listening as a dancer and as an audience member.And like,

yeah. Because I guess the simonym would be like seeing, watching, but 

Sara Ruddock:

Yes, yeah, 

PETER:

yeah. Looking. But I think there's something there's something about listening that is embodied. Yeah. Very quickly. Especially when you hear music, you hear sound, it feels like there's less filter, whereas with dancing, but it exists. There's science, right, to back up that when we watch something, our neurons fire, as if we are learning the dance in our own bodies, that empathetic nervous system that we have. We should bring it to a bow. 

Sara Ruddock:

Let's make a bow. What's the color of the ribbon? 

PETER:

Is there anything you wanted to say or like, this was really pleasurable? We didn't get into the details of what came up in our last little dance, but there was so many great things, so many great images and qualities, and the same with the walking backwards. But this has been such a pleasure. Is there. 

Sara Ruddock:

I agree. Yeah, do you have it's it's been really fun. 

PETER:

And if people do find it and listen to us dancing and talking and thinking, aloud and want to get in touch with you and your work. How would they do? 

Sara Ruddock:

Yes. Well, you can make contact via my website, Sarah Ruddock.com. At the moment, I'm in the thick of writing at my thesis for the PhD research, so I'm not giving a lot of workshops outside of our teaching here at at Trinity to Laban and at the moment. But I will. 

PETER:

Yes. 

Sara Ruddock:

come back to sharing more practice, I will come back to performing and making work in a different, in a different way. But yeah, I'm in London. 

PETER:

Yeah, getting in touch if you're interested. So excited to see where this research and work, where it goes and how it continues. Yeah, it's such a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Sara Ruddock:

 this is been great. Thank you so much for inviting me. 

PETER:

No, thank you for bringing us here. This was great. All right, thank you. 

Sara Ruddock:

Thank you.