PETER, dance with...

PETER, dance with Dan Canham

• PETER • Season 3 • Episode 37

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S3 Ep2  PETER, dance with Dan Canham
Today we danced with Dan Canham. Follow Dan Canham on instagram @dan_canham https://www.instagram.com/dan_canham/ or on Dan’s website https://www.dancanham.com/

And see Dan’s work at the closing event for Bradford City of Culture 2025, Winter Solstice 20th and 21st of December in Myrtle Park. Book here https://bradford2025.co.uk/event/brighter-still/   

References:

Closing event for Bradford City of Culture 2025, Winter Solstice 20th and 21st of December in Myrtle Park - https://bradford2025.co.uk/event/brighter-still/   

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For information about PETER visit www.stillpeter.com.

And contact PETER email peterapeterpeter@gmail.com PETER would love to hear from you.

Support the podcast paypal.me/dancepeter

Transcript:


PETER:

Alright, so, hello. Today I'm with Dan Canham. 


Dan Canham:

Yeah, that's it. Canham? 


PETER:

Yeah. And we are, well, we could say we're in the fens and we're going to dance together. Yeah.  Yeah, I mean, I really appreciated dancing with you all those years ago and 201 yeah, 2018 or 2019, somewhere around there with Fabulous Beast. You were always such a kind and caring soul. It's. It was such a joy. So when I had this opportunity to reconnect, of course, it made sense to sort of reach out. And I know now you're doing many things. I mean, in the intermittent phase, you've done a lot of things. But if you could say maybe for people who don't know who you are and maybe for me, because I don't fully know who you are yet. Just a brief sort of thing. 


Dan Canham:

Yes. Yes, because it's been 17 years since we danced together. It feels like another life to me. I stopped performing. I stopped performing in 2016. and I got to the point where I was performing in my own work because I was fed up with performing for other people. Yeah. But that also becomes kind of exhausting, and I was always probably more interested in choreographing and directing. I just didn't know how. So I had to learn what to do and what not to do from other people. But now, yes, at this point, this new revolution of activity for me involves choreographing and directing, a lot of, like, large scale, theater and dance shows that might involve like 150, 200 people, most of whom will be members of the community. And so I've been doing a lot of work with the National Theatre Public Acts. We just made a show in Sunderland called Public Record, which was like an original devised piece of dance music theater, with a cast of 100, featuring loads of music legends from Sunderland and that was great. And I would say the thing I love most and the thing that I get the biggest kick out of is just taking those people on a journey, I would say, I feel like I'm a bit of a specialist in relatively quickly, allowing people to access dance who might not feel like it was ever for them. 



PETER:

Yeah. 


Dan Canham:

For whatever reason. And suddenly collectively they're feeling this collective power and we're grooving and we're we're dancing freely. However, you know, any steps are just used as a little springboard and suddenly people have got smiles on their faces and they're saying to me, "Dan, I didn't realize dance was for me” and there'd be really good dancers. And I love that. I get such a high off it. So that's a lot of the work that I do, and then on top of that, I do a lot of camera work. And sometimes they overlap. 


PETER:

Yeah. Yeah. Filming, filming dance. But, I mean, what it speaks to, for me is a little bit like dance is just always so close and so present. And it really, I mean, and I experience it myself. Like, it's not 20 years of professional training that brings you to dance. Like, it's just a shift of perspective, which actually maybe is a nice link into like where we are. Maybe you could just say a little bit about where we are and what we're going to do. 


Dan Canham:

Yes. So we've come, we just met just met in a Tesco car park after 17 years. And I've driven you out to the fen edge. I won't give a full account of the fens, but what we're looking at now is like 360 degrees of flat land. and in any one direction, we can probably see for at least two or three miles. And in some cases a lot further. And we're looking at sort of wheat fields that have been harvested, just stubbly wheat fields, which are quite a nice color, actually. We've got some lovely greens. It's been very dry here, you can see, so there's a lot of beige and yellows. It's overcast day, but there's a bit of blue around. 


PETER:

Yeah, you can really see the clouds rolling off into the horizon.. 


Dan Canham:

And we're on an old drove, like just an old farm track that has been concreted a single track again in the middle of nowhere. I don't imagine we'll see anyone for if we sat here for a couple of hours, we might see a jogger or a farmer or a cyclist. That might be it. Which is odd because we're quite close to Cambridge, quite close to a big city, and I just love how so out here on the fens, I I feel at home because I grew up around here on the edge of the fens, and I feel a simultaneous sense of comfort with all of this space and of ownership, because you're not going to be disturbed and also slight paranoia. because if someone had some binoculars or a scope, they could be miles away and see us. And in fact, there was one time where for some research for a project in the fens at night, I drove out to one of these droves out near near March, near Doddington, and I put my headlights on and I just started filming myself dancing. And it was, I don't know, maybe nine o'clock at night, and there was no one around for miles. It's amazing feeling, and you feel so free. But then literally within half an hour, someone drove up to me and said, "What are you doing?" And I was like, I can't remember what I said. I think I said something that did enough to just put them off. I was like, I'm just doing some research or something. Usually you say you're a student or something. and they don't bother. But yeah, so. Oh, there's a car car did pass. Oh, and there's another car look after I said we have to watch out. But we've come here because it's a really straight drove and I thought it would be nice as a kind of reunion of sorts for us to be either ends of this road, maybe like a mile apart, and just slowly, with the wind blowing across us and all of this space, slowly meet in the middle. Feels like something Marina Abramović and Ulay would do. 


PETER:

Oh, yeah. 


Dan Canham:

They did it on the Great Wall of China. I think that's the inspiration. They did it on the Great Wall of China. We're doing it for over a mile on a fen drove. But that is it, then. And we're going to dance it as a way of the recipe as we get closer and then we have some kind of point of connection. 


PETER:

Yeah. I mean, it is. We're meeting across time and space. Yeah, this is wonderful. And I mean, and I'm now living here, so it's also apt, right? So we somehow meeting in this place where you're from and you're anchored and that I'm finding myself anchoring and encountering. This sounds great. So we're going to walk along this straight road, turn around, and move towards each others in some way. Yeah. Great. Sounds simple.. All right, then we'll pause now and we'll be back in a bit. Lovely.



Pause



PETER:

All right. Okay. So, we're back in the car. Yeah. 


Dan Canham:

At the Midway point. Yeah. 


PETER:

At the the rendezvous. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow. I was really impressive. I think we just, yeah, we say what we found and what came up for us. I mean, firstly, you found a snake. 


Dan Canham:

Yeah, I found a snake, snake skin yeah. Yeah. Or maybe two. I can't tell. Which, yeah, I had to be careful not to just get carried away with dancing for the snake skin and abandoning you. But yeah, like, just about noticing, I guess. Yeah. And what you notice. Yeah. And I had the feeling like this could be a practice. Yeah. And the more we do it, the more we'd notice. Yeah. And the more we'd slow. I feel like if we did it 100 times, it would just get slower and slower and slower until we were just walking. And it would get longer and longer. And so, yeah, when I started noticing things, then I saw like a snake skin or. the buzzard calling or felt that wind in the grass or yeah, details. 


PETER:

Yeah, I mean, I mean, even to the extent, so at the beginning we walked away from each other and we didn't really discuss how and when we would turn back. But I got to the bend in the road and then I felt like, okay, that makes sense. But there was definitely an urge of like, how much of a dance do I want? And like, how much do I want to include? Like, there was very interesting quality of like wanting to, yeah, like you say, notice more and be with more like throughout, not just the walking away, but also coming back to towards each other. I really, yeah, beautiful sort of. Yeah, quality of inclusion. Mm, mm mm. Definitely the buzzard. At some point, I didn't realize there were crickets, and then I heard the cricketets. And this is sort of the tractor across the way. And even just the details in the sky and then, for me, it also there was like the relationship between us and it differed so much. Yeah, how much I could see you or not. 


Dan Canham:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because you're not sure. like. can you see what I'm doing? Is it having an effect on you at what point? There was one point where I felt like we had a first proper connection, which I don't know, maybe 50 meters apart, where you were low, and then I got low, and it kind of slowed down. It felt quite animal. Yeah. And it was like, "Oh, he can see me now.” Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those stages of intimacy, Yeah. proximity, on a big scale, like Yeah. There's no rehearsal room, this big. 


PETER:

No, no, no. No, no. Absolutely. And I have so much input as well. But on a very fine level as well. Like it's not loud music or something. 


Dan Canham:

It's Which was weird for me because I almost, I almost exclusively danced to music. Yeah, yeah. And it will almost exclusively be like mining for grooves and repetitive, like things I can like teach and like that's almost exclusions to be what I do. So having the space to just drop in and out of, yeah. freer stuff was freeing and also just like, what do I do? have music in my head sometimes. 


PETER:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly, But yeah. But for me there was such a number of rhythms, actually. 


Dan Canham:

Yeah, sure, sure. 


PETER:

And the rhythmicality was so explicit and strong. Just because I know that I'm somehow to get closer to you. So there's the rhythm of just having to walk, right? I mean walking is such a rhythmical activity. But then the wind through the grass and the sort of stop and change and shift in direction. And you're kind of getting closer to the rhythms of the space. At some point, like I was vocalizing some of the breath and some of the sounds of the things. But also, yeah, having an intimacy with that and definitely like the animal came out from me as well. I'm on the ground and I feel like a hare peering up off the grass. 



Dan Canham:

Well, there is a hare. You've just said it and I've just spotted one. That's crazy. Can you see it? 


PETER:

Yeah. Yeah. 


Dan Canham:

Literally. You just said it and we hadn't seen one. And I haven't seen one in the last three days out here. And there it is. 


PETER:

You summon and it will come. 


Dan Canham:

That's crazy. Because also obviously we had hares in right of spring. That's crazy. It's right there. Yeah. Yeah. That's. What else do you want to summon? We've had the snake, the hare, learner driver. Yeah. Nice. 


PETER:

But it is. It's about there's something conjures for me about getting closer to those things and listening and giving it opportunity. I had to think of your work with communities and things and this is such a simple and rich invitation for us today. And I was sort of curious, like, how do you, yeah, how do you manage that that sort of intimacy of dance and the expectations and like familiarity that maybe people who are new to it have or don't have, right. 


Dan Canham:

When I'm working with communities, it's tends to be like social dances, my way in, even if we're making up our own social dance, and I'm always mining for like simple steps which I can name the shareable and teachable that I can call out in the moment so people don't have to worry about what comes next. Almost like a Cèilidh. 


PETER:

Yeah, yeah. 


Dan Canham:

But without the music or those particular steps. But it really is analogous to that kind of social dance I'll call out something. And what it does generally seems to is just free people up and free them up to be with each other. And so much of the approach being explicit about naming "This is for you.” “This is for your friends,” as much as for an audience.. And not like a presentation, you know, face out, everyone face out front. I want them to be facing each other. I want to be looking into each other's eyes. I want them to be enjoying the steps and crucially, as well, I always say there can be as many different versions of that choreography as there are people doing it. And I really mean that. As long as the spirit and the attack and the quality is there, you can do the same move in your left index finger, if that's all you have facility for that day as you can with your full body. And I've seen it, I've seen it. It used to be just words that I said and figured, oh yeah, that theory is sound, but they' I've really seen it. seeing, you know, 160 people on the Olivier (Theatre) doing this like storm sequence where they're dancing and I've seen people like wheelchair users who who are putting it really in their shoulders or like someone who's like 80 years old. Do you know what I mean? Finding their own way or a four year old just going for it? But as long as the collective approach and spirit is right, then they are meeting through dancing. And the step and the groove is a safety net for them so that they don't have to worry about what it is they're doing. They can just meet through. And then as an audience, maybe you see that and you see the connections and you think, I want to be part of that.. 


PETER:

Yeah, yeah. If not just as a witness, right? Feeling it, feeling the music, feeling the rhythm. 


Dan Canham:

Yeah. Yeah. So, and I think the thing about the freedom of expression, obviously, obviously, as a choreographer, I have, like, many different, like, um needs to serve, not least serving the story or even if there's no narrative, you know, serving the rhythm and the journey of a piece. But yeah, I think and so I'm really, I'm really hot on, like, detail, you know, when detail of approach and of attack, but then, I think because I worked for so many choreographers over the years when I was dancing, who were so. precise to the point of controlling that it could strip you of that creativity if you didn't have exactly the right body or approach. And because I never trained. Because I did a drama degree. And my body doesn't suit certain approaches. Then I just get a real kick out of opening up and cracking, approaches to dancing. 


PETER:

Yeah. Because what's so striking with what we did now is also that I'm standing there alone and I have to think about how the grass will continue moving. The crickets will continue sounding. The crack in the road will continue opening and the plants will continue growing through them. The snake will continue to shed its skin and the farmer will be still doing the fields., like this sort of like strangeness in dancing of like I'm doing it alone, but am I? You know, we were so far apart at the beginning I could barely see you. I didn't know if it was you or not, 


Dan Canham:

if it started 


PETER:

if it started exactly and like, are we together or am I dancing by myself? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's some sort of thread there where like the individual and the collective, they're not so far apart. Like each person in the on the stage in the community dance needs to somehow be alone in themselves and in who they are. And at the same time, beside and with everyone else, right? There's something


Dan Canham:

Totally And I think for that reason, I don't often use physical contact. And if I do, it tends to be quite gestural or like overtly theatrical. I won't often involve like, yeah, or if it is social, maybe there's, you know, a social dance to it, but I don't often use contact and even before work and a lot with members of the community, even with pros, I wouldn't often use that because maybe because I enjoy my own space and being able to have agency over my own space whilst being in relation to Yeah, I don't know. You can still do that when you're touching, but maybe it becomes harder. 


PETER:

Yeah. Yeah. No, there's more or the agency, that like control of oneself is somehow limited, even by the just the social code of like, okay, now we're touching so I should honor that. I mean, funny enough, we did touch. And I felt it as like a question. Like we were getting closer and closer and then of course the the sort of sort of, what do you call it, the end result of like getting closer is just let's clap hands, let's bump fists let's hug but I felt that resistance and it was interesting because it meant, okay, but it's not about somehow becoming one or I don't know, that's bad word, maybe, 


Dan Canham:

but I know what you mean 


PETER:

being together somehow it like caused me to ask questions of like, how can I continue this dance actually going past you? Yeah, yeah beyond you. 


Dan Canham:

I was the choreographer in me was really present. That's what I was like, no, we have to earn this moment. I like, we can't just like, that can't be the first thing, just bump fists. Do you know what I mean? So I was like, my choreographer hat was all, I was just like, what's the what's the good choice here? And butting back to back felt good, you know, because this whole thing about forwards and back on a straight line felt really. Yeah. 


PETER:

I mean, actually, that was challenged a lot by the environment. So yeah, the road was is linear. Yeah. However, it doesn't it doesn't, it didn't necessarily pull me in that sort of forward/back direction because you have this side wind. Yeah, which is so present almost omnipresent. Like it's it's inescapable, regardless of what direction you're going. It really fronted that. 


Dan Canham:

Yeah. That's right. What did that. I once met, did a project interviewing some people out here and I spoke to a guy who at the time was a traditional eel catcher. He used to make willow traps. Oh, yeah, yeah. And he was part of a long line, like hundreds of years of his family. His name was Peter Carter and he told me “the wind out here is a lazy wind. because it doesn't bother to go around you, it goes straight through you. So it's lazy.” It's just like a classic, like fen saying, but like that thing you say, yeah, I like, yeah, I felt it kind of slightly diagonal, so at times I'd just like orient to the road and then it's just this wind coming at me or to my front or to my back. 


PETER:

Yeah, yeah. Which I loved. Yeah, I mean, we I think that the beautiful thing with dance for me is that it does, like, it doesn't really have a language and it struggles to sort of like find sort of representation in the world and relevance sometimes as well. But like you say, these colloquial sayings and things, like the conditions of the place often the environment, they're so bodily. Like it goes through you, it's lazy. It's like a dancing partner, you know? Like it's 


Dan Canham:

and for me as well, like those conditions include my history and knowledge of like people and I don't know how you found it, but and I think I'm like it in general, but like when it comes to taking up space and when it comes to being an expressive, like, I was really impressed that the first, I don't know, maybe five, ten minutes of your dance, you were within 10 meters of this learner driver who just parked up and they were maybe watching? I don't know, chatting through. Certainly it would have been out of the ordinary for them. And what it means to be antisocial or to be unpredictable or to be seen as, I don't know, like, you know, flamboyant or extreme or expressive in a way that certainly around here isn't necessarily welcomed because, I would say, at least from my experience growing up, and like historically, it's quite a sort of conformist, do you know what I mean? Like, don't step out of the ordinary. It will be commented on if you do. Yeah. And I just wondered for you how that was starting. I did have some level of like, can someone see me? Is someone watching? Will they call the police? What do they think I'm doing? Do you know what I mean? Like, but that speaks more broadly to me about, yeah, public space and dance as this kind of, you know, what it means to take up space in that way. And sometimes I'm uncomfortable with it. Like, if it's not a licensed venue does it fit?  How did that feel for you? 


PETER:

Yeah, Well, exactly as you described it as like taking up space. It's quite powerful as a meeting, actually, when I meet my like... Because it's in me, also, right? Their eyes on me, my perception of their eyes on me what they perceive me to be doing and what am I allowed to do, what I think am I allowed to do. 


Dan Canham:

Exactly. 


PETER:

It's it's kind of it's a very, like. It's a strong sense of being allowed or not allowed to be present. And and we took up so much space. And like you say, there's no dance studio as long as there's. 


Dan Canham:

No, no, no. 


PETER:

But what came of it? You know, like the beauty of seeing your duet partner get closer? Or the person you're conversing with physically get starts so small and also to have such range. I mean, we could have veered off the the droge, right? 


Dan Canham:

The drove. 


PETER:

The drove. Yeah, yeah. And gone outwhere. Yeah. So like taking up space, it feels like a right. Yeah, right. And yet that freedom feels really elusive and we were speaking a bit about how the fans are they're very wild space, but they're very created Yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah. maintained space. 


Dan Canham:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's entirely human made now. Yeah, yeah, insulpted and farmed and kind of, yeah, ransacked. Yeah. 


PETER:

I mean, like the the sense of permission to do dancing. I mean, I've also been looking, how can I walk these places? And it's terrifying. I mean, most of the time I'm just like, oh, I don't want to bother someone. I don't want to walk on someone's land and stuff. But how do you engage with, those questions in general? 


Dan Canham:

Yeah. I think, yeah. It's reminded me of a couple of things. One is with my oldest friend from around here, we used to go on these long walks, just sometimes in a straight line. You know, along the 40 foot drain, you can walk and some of it is private land. We managed to do it. It is when we were younger, we cared less. Yeah. But we managed to, yeah, walk in a straight line for 22 miles. Between Earith and Downham Market and that's something. It is that Marina and Ulay thing, if we did opposite ends of that, it would take us, you know, a day to meet. And would you be able to dance for 11 miles? But no, I think, yeah, what it means to to be expressive in that way and to.. I'm really good when I've got the license and then I'll just like. If I'm like, if someone's like, here's a stage, here's a microphone, whatever, here's a, here's a license to do your thing, I'll take up that space. If not, I get very I get very nervous. And yeah making sound and like, you know, all of that kind of stuff because it might be seen. And I' just come back from New York. I was in New York This is what it's on my mind a couple of weeks ago, doing some research and like there's a possible project out there that may or may not happen and but I had the joy of just meeting incredible people out there and watching some rehearsals of things and the first thing I did after being on a plane for eight hours and then an hour and a half through immigration and then catch their Uber was land at Pier 76 on the Hudson River. So I'd been invited there. And there was this thing called Dance is Life, this party on a Monday afternoon between, I don't know, five o'clock and 10 o'clock at night. It's properly diverse, properly queer. People are just so expressive. And then you could see some of that too. Just around the city.. Do you know what I mean? Like, people roller skating and central. And like, and in fact, then we were chatting to someone about like nights out there and stuff. And they said every night out is like on some level is a queer night out. It's no longer just its own thing. It's just permeates culture for the young people. Do you know what I mean, out there. And I think especially like in New York in general, I just found people so at ease with expressing themselves. And of course, that's a cliche too, in terms of. But it's such a comparison to England. And especially around here, Tory hotspot as well. Do you know what I mean? Or probably Reform now. where it is very ordered. Even the land is ordered. It's all straight lines, it's, do you know what I mean? And so, and as you say, we could have just cut zigzags across one of it. I would be nervous. I still have the fear of a farmers shotgun. 


PETER:

Yeah, of course. 


Dan Canham:

From when I was a child. But yeah, I think I got, I've really, in New York, I was like, damn, this this is enticing. Yeah. Because there is this invitation to just do what the hell you want, where, what the hell you want and no one's going to blink an eyelid. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. 


PETER:

No, it's there is like a hope with this sort of like, I mean, it's terrifying and freeing at the same time. Like we're experiencing where anyone can have a voice, right? Like social media and yeah, has sort of on the internet has sort of created the space where we all feel like in some part that we should participate. Like we have to comment on things we have to like things. And that sort of culture, I think is becoming more and more prevalent or permitted in like so much of our lives and especially the young who are like growing up in this nature. 


Dan Canham:

And this felt odd because we weren't filming it. 


PETER:

Exactly. Exactly. 


Dan Canham:

It's really for his own sake. Yeah. He's like, shit, but this is gold. Where's this? How can we put this on the gram and shit him in and all like, how can I harvest this some of this material like yeah, yeah, yeah yeah and so to do it for its own sake, I think it's a good practice. 


PETER:

Yeah. I mean, I mean, and in a way it's not as well, right? We're still capturing a part of it, but I was I was really thinking actually. 


Dan Canham:

True. 


PETER:

Because you chose such a visually spectacular. It's not going to get a cross on audio, but it is just amazing. And like just, I noticed the detail, like I was at some point on the ground and you see the lichen. Like you see the conversation between nature and this road that has been built. And of course, yeah, you want to capture it somehow and put it out there, but it's it's a weird conversation when we know Instagram is sort of like this monopoly of like creator space as well. 


Dan Canham:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 


PETER:

It's sort of almost authoritarian control space where everything has to function in the best way possible. That's right, yeah. But what I love is you sort of opening up this question of like giving permission. And that really resonates with the kind of community dancing and when I'm working with people who haven't danced so much, like exactly how do I give them permission to do these things? Like we know as professional dancers and people have worked in the field for so long that the the border between dancing and not dancing is so thin. 


Dan Canham:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 


PETER:

Like people can really do it. Like, that sort of old expression of like, oh, I can't dance is really speaking to something that is very sad actually. 


Dan Canham:

Yeah, no, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. 


PETER:

It sounds really amazing. The ways in which you're finding to sort of give permission or give license as you say as well. 


Dan Canham:

I sort of, yeah, I think what I tend to do is I'm really, I feel like I'm really sensitive. I'm sensitive to where people might be at. And of course I I explicitly state early, like meet this wherever you're at. And then I'll, and then I'll try and set the ask in terms of commitment really high. Right off the bat. And then as soon as one person or a number of people like meet that, I'll reinforce it and I'll praise it. And that generally works me and then everyone will say, oh, damn, right, they're going for, I can, I'm allowed where it falls down, which almost happened to me the other time. Not so long ago. and it's been a long time since in that situation I was teaching a group of teenagers, some of whom haven't danced much at all. Some of like teenage boys and they were just part of this group, amazing group. in Stoke as part of this project I was doing with Restoke, or an amazing organization and they're trying to up their work with teenagers. And in the first morning, I was doing what I thought was relatively low bar engagement, kind of just to get them humming in as a group, and they were not having it. And so my usual tactic of like ask and then support when it's met just couldn't happen because it wasn't being met. And then I was like, shit, what other what other tactics do I have? like, how can I like get them in their power? And I'm used to doing it quick. And this feels like it's going to be harder. I think actually then, because we were going to make like a we were making like a music video dance video after a bit of a struggley first session, I played them the music that was made by this guy, Paul Rogerson, who works at restock, was really cool music. I showed them some of the visual references, which included like this ROSALÍA & Travis Scott music video where they were like, oh, actually, this is pretty cool. I showed them some of the stuff I'd shot before and then suddenly they were on board. And it was just really interesting to me in that moment of like, I've always had the mantra in my head, like, the material, especially in that kind of situation has to be, is the thing. You can be as enthusiastic and as kind of motivating as you like, but if people aren't really into the material, you've got an uphill battle. But one thing I noticed there as well is like there can be other ways of like, I guess we're talking about, like trust and credibility. And you can signal I'm giving you permission, I'm giving you permission. But if they don't trust you for whatever reason, even if you think, well, you should, it's not going to fly. And so even just showing that Travis Scott and ROSALÍA music video or playing that music, suddenly it had a lot more cachet. And then when I was asking them to, we still had a journey to go on, but at least we were on the path, whereas when it first started, it was like, oh no, I don't we can't even see the path here. So it's all trust, isn't it? And one of the things in New York, actually, I was doing some work with this amazing, the public theater in New York, like, amazing, and they have this program called Public Works where they work with hundreds of members of the community and they've been doing it 10 years. Some of them have been in, they call them pageants, but they're big shows and some of them have been in like four or five pageants over the years. Their whole family. Some of them might have started as a four-year old and now they're a teenager and they're still doing it, you know, incredible, long form community engagement. But yeah, on the wall there, Dahlia Ramsay Lopez (Dan meant to say Dahlia Lopez Ramsay) who I was working out there with She'd put “up always act in the interests of trust building.” I think. And she said I think those were the worst. And she'd she'd been round the houses on what it could be, like, always assumed best intentions, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that was the one she'd landed on. And I should say as well, like so much of this approach is really, really grounded in director Emily Lim. You know, she's run public acts at the National. She's like, opened up so much of my work and and it's so values led. And I'm sure, like, for her, like, yeah, always acting at the interests of trust building, I think, yeah, it is, like, that's the. That's the thing. That's That's what it is. And we've come out here because we know each other, the trust is implicit, but still, it's only that that allows for you to step outside of their ordinary. 


PETER:

Exactly. I was just going to say, like, in a meta way, like I'm so, I feel so privileged that you trusted me to do this. And I think it was clear, like I sent you a message on Instagram after, yeah, after we'd sort of reconnected there and then immediately you were like, yeah, let's see. And I think, and throughout it as well, like trusting to stay a little bit longer with a movement, trusting to stay or to go back to back, even though I felt your choreographic hand sort of like, oh yeah, you're right. Let's trust in what else could be there. And then trusting in, oh, can we can we find contact and what kind of contact would that be? And throughout, like there's these plays around permitting and providing, which sort of I had to think a lot about how for a while I was thinking that Dance doesn't always have to be performed and that dance can exist outside of that economy almost. And I still agree with it, but I think there's something still, which is similar to performance, maybe definitely not just for the stage, but a performance where it's like being present, taking space, and trusting one another and permitting one another to be able to, for that dance to exist. And even to trust yourself as well. To dance.


Dan Canham:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. There's a moment relatively soon after I'd stopped performing on stage where I still enjoyed dancing, obviously, and with dance like to music in my living room and so on. And I realized like, oh, I can close my eyes. Because for years it was like, never close your eyes. Do you know what I mean? Like, that was just my thing. And like, always let the audience in and what are your eyes doing? And that performative outward facing. And then I was like, shit, I can just close my eyes. Just have a great time. Just vibe out. And it felt like, I don't know. Yeah, it felt like a whole different relationship to moving. Yeah. 


PETER:

It's. I mean, the word is really big, but everything about your proposal today screams freedom in some way or another, just being in such a large expansive space and then trying to to find a little bit of freedom in there and be there. It's really beautiful. 


Dan Canham:

Good, yeah. Good. It's nice. 


PETER:

Yeah, I think we could probably start to wrap it up there unless you have anything else. It's pertinent from this experience. Otherwise, you could let us know, maybe how to get in touch with your the rest of your work. 


Dan Canham:

Yes. If you're curious. Instagram's the place I put everything. But I'll, you know, when I say everything, it's not my whole life, but, you know, everything I'm up to. And the Instagram is @dan_canham. There's some pictures and films and stuff up there. I'm co-directing the closing event for Bradford City of Culture, which will be Winter Solstice. Nice. Yeah, so that will be 20th and 21st of December in Bradford in a park, and we've really drawn on kind of ways of gathering and of congregating at that time and fire and dance and music. 


PETER:

Wow. Real fire. 


Dan Canham:

Yeah. Yeah. That sounds amazing. So that'll be, yeah, maybe like 180 performers, hopefully. From the Bradford region and big audience, maybe We're hoping for like 5,000. Yeah. Under the sky, whatever the weather. Yeah. And so that's a big one coming up. And then, yeah, lots of lots of nice kind of film-based projects that find their life and their place. online or in festivals over over the time and there's quite a few of those I've put up on on the Instagram. Yeah. 


PETER:

Yeah, great. Yeah, that's great. And I mean, then you seem to be everywhere. You're in New York. You're all over. 


Dan Canham:

Yeah, you are traveling in the minute, yeah. Yeah. I think that seems to just be the nature of it, I think, with how things are. Yeah. Being able to go wherever that those little pockets of exciting work are is essential. I'd like to work in Briston more. I'd like to not be away from home as much. But, yeah.. What I do is relatively, what I'm into is relatively specific. Yeah. This is broad, but, like, you know, so... I got to go wherever that is. 


PETER:

I mean, I it sounds so awesome. I hope I can come to the north and see you. I need to come to the north. That's not a place to be. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Dan. We'll keep talking. 


Dan Canham:

Yeah. Yeah. Good. Good.